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Old 12-19-2013, 12:45 PM  
duncan_idaho duncan_idaho is offline
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:41 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The problem with this line of thinking is that at the time, almost nobody cared or thought it was wrong. Its not like there was this dark taboo that they decided to violate for immoral gain, almost no one cared. Its easy to view the past from today's lens, but public opinion on this did change rather drastically.
If "nobody thought this was wrong," why did these guy all lawyer up and deny deny deny?
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:44 PM   #302
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There's another issue thats not talked about much, but should be a serious concern for Cooperstown if they want to survive in the long-run.

I literally have no reason or desire to ever go to the hall of fame. Why? Because the best players I saw during the time I've been watching baseball are apparently banned right now. If Clemons, Bonds, McGwire, etc aren't in the hall, then I don't care.

All those old farts who are shaking their fists at the PED era have something else to fall back on when they visit, old baseball heroes they watched long ago, but not me. While I may respect the statistical accomplishments of those who were inducted this year, I only saw a few years of their careers, I simply have not been watching baseball long enough to give a tinker's damn about anyone who is in the hall, other than Brett and thats just because he's a Royal, I didn't even see him play.

After the old farts are all invalid or dead, if they were looking to turn Cooperstown into a desolate ghost town that no one visits, then they are on their way.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:45 PM   #303
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It's also a slap in the face to players of that same era who were great WITHOUT cheating by using PEDs.
Nobody knows who did and did not use PEDs, besides maybe the media and owners, but they never said anything about at the time either. It was a part of the game when they played and they should not be punished for it.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:45 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by gblowfish View Post
If "nobody thought this was wrong," why did these guy all lawyer up and deny deny deny?
The time when they were using was a VASTLY different time than when they "lawyered up" and "denied".

Its really not deniable, maybe you don't remember, but roids was a running joke that people weren't offended by, but rather just joked and laughed at during the time that McGwire/Sosa chased the HR record.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:46 PM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
There's another issue thats not talked about much, but should be a serious concern for Cooperstown if they want to survive in the long-run.

I literally have no reason or desire to ever go to the hall of fame. Why? Because the best players I saw during the time I've been watching baseball are apparently banned right now. If Clemons, Bonds, McGwire, etc aren't in the hall, then I don't care.

All those old farts who are shaking their fists at the PED era have something else to fall back on when they visit, old baseball heroes they watched long ago, but not me. While I may respect the statistical accomplishments of those who were inducted this year, I only saw a few years of their careers, I simply have not been watching baseball long enough to give a damn about anyone who is in the hall, other than Brett and thats just because he's a Royal, I didn't even see him play.

After the old farts are all invalid or dead, if they were looking to turn Cooperstown into a desolate ghost that no one visits, then they are on their way.
How old are you? I always assumed that you were an old fart.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:48 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by gblowfish View Post
If "nobody thought this was wrong," why did these guy all lawyer up and deny deny deny?
Congress got involved which could mean jail time for lying. They needed professional liars at that point. See: Clemens, Roger.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:52 PM   #307
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How old are you? I always assumed that you were an old fart.
I'm 35, I still have a good generation or two to go of watching the Royals lose 100 games. Losing is all I've ever known, I was not a baseball fan until the late 90's, and didn't watch a lot of baseball until about 10 years ago.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:04 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
There's another issue thats not talked about much, but should be a serious concern for Cooperstown if they want to survive in the long-run.

I literally have no reason or desire to ever go to the hall of fame. Why? Because the best players I saw during the time I've been watching baseball are apparently banned right now. If Clemons, Bonds, McGwire, etc aren't in the hall, then I don't care.

All those old farts who are shaking their fists at the PED era have something else to fall back on when they visit, old baseball heroes they watched long ago, but not me. While I may respect the statistical accomplishments of those who were inducted this year, I only saw a few years of their careers, I simply have not been watching baseball long enough to give a tinker's damn about anyone who is in the hall, other than Brett and thats just because he's a Royal, I didn't even see him play.

After the old farts are all invalid or dead, if they were looking to turn Cooperstown into a desolate ghost town that no one visits, then they are on their way.
If you don't have a love for the history of the game, then I can't help you. The history of the game is one of the fundamental pillars that makes baseball great.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:06 PM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The time when they were using was a VASTLY different time than when they "lawyered up" and "denied".

Its really not deniable, maybe you don't remember, but roids was a running joke that people weren't offended by, but rather just joked and laughed at during the time that McGwire/Sosa chased the HR record.
This is revisionist history.

There were plenty of players that were NOT juicing that detested the drugs becoming a part of the game. Players who were dirty were making dirty money, at the expense of the honesty and integrity of the players who stayed clean.

There's plenty of players from that era who put up HOF numbers without having to cheat to get there.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:18 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by gblowfish View Post
If you don't have a love for the history of the game, then I can't help you. The history of the game is one of the fundamental pillars that makes baseball great.
Most people go to the hall of fame to view the exhibits, plaques, and tributes to baseball players they cheered for. This facade of going because of "history" is a bunch of hogwash for almost all of them.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:20 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by gblowfish View Post
This is revisionist history.

There were plenty of players that were NOT juicing that detested the drugs becoming a part of the game. Players who were dirty were making dirty money, at the expense of the honesty and integrity of the players who stayed clean.

There's plenty of players from that era who put up HOF numbers without having to cheat to get there.
I don't give a damn.

I do care about players who break the rules today because they are clearly illegal and tested for, but it was not even discouraged back then, and the excluded players were the greatest players of their era. A hall of fame without Bonds, McGwire, and Clemens, is a pathetic institution unworthy of being called a "hall of fame".

It is also clear that most fans want them inducted. The hall of fame is supposed to belong to them, not to a few hundred sportswriters.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:26 PM   #312
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Most people go to the hall of fame to view the exhibits, plaques, and tributes to baseball players they cheered for. This facade of going because of "history" is a bunch of hogwash for almost all of them.
Have you ever been there?

I've been there three times, including to see Brett's induction.

I think if you'd ever taken a trip to Cooperstown, it would change your mind. If you have been there, then again, I can't help you if this is your viewpoint.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:27 PM   #313
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I don't give a damn.



It is also clear that most fans want them inducted. The hall of fame is supposed to belong to them, not to a few hundred sportswriters.
Evidence on this?
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:33 PM   #314
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I don't give a damn.

It is also clear that most fans want them inducted. The hall of fame is supposed to belong to them, not to a few hundred sportswriters.
I wonder if most fans want them included.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:56 PM   #315
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Alnorth: if it's any consolation, Rany agrees with your viewpoint.

http://www.baseballnation.com/2012/1...-fame-steroids

The difference I see here is, these modern players didn't use PEDs to overcome injury during the season. They paid chemists and boutique drug specialist to craft PEDs that would help them bulk up in the off season, and be UNDETECTABLE by the testing methods at the time. In other words, it was all done to help their agents demand more money for each roided up player, based on their drug-inflated statistics.

Look at Barry Bonds Rookie Card. Doing push ups didn't make his hat size grow from a 6 to a 7 and 3/4.

The other thing that is not spoken of is, these players didn't roid up to help their teams. They roided up to help their marketability first and foremost. It was about grabbing as much money as possible, and cheating the system to do it. Guys like ARoid did nothing but chase money their entire career, and in the case of ARoid, it didn't help the teams he played for win squat.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. And I'll have to see some quantitative proof that "fans want these guys in the hall."

I'll bet it's 50-50 tops.
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