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Old 12-24-2013, 09:38 AM  
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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Moral Dilemma: Wife is brain dead but pregnant

Interesting story and I am not sure what the right answer is though I tend to side with the wishes of the person over the state. I don't know...

Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/23/health...html?hpt=hp_t2

Erick Munoz wants to see his wife's wish fulfilled this holiday season, but it's one that carries ethical and legal challenges: To be taken off of life support. Marlise Munoz, 33, is in serious condition in the intensive care unit at John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth, Texas, hospital officials said.

She is unconscious and on a ventilator, her husband told CNN affiliate WFAA, but she wouldn't have wanted her life sustained by a machine.
"We talked about it. We're both paramedics," he told WFAA. "We've seen things out in the field. We both knew that we both didn't want to be on life support."

Complicating an already difficult situation is that Munoz is also pregnant, about 18 weeks along, WFAA reported. Texas state law prohibits withdrawing or withholding life-sustaining treatment from a pregnant patient, regardless of her wishes.

Patients can indicate their future wishes about medical treatment, in the event that they are unable to communicate them, through forms called advance directives. But in Texas, under the Health and Safety Code, such a form includes the provision "I understand that under Texas law this Directive has no effect if I have been diagnosed as pregnant."

Erick Munoz told WFAA doctors said his wife may have suffered a pulmonary embolism, which happens when blood clots travel to the lungs from elsewhere in the body. They do not know how long the baby went without nutrients and oxygen.

The hospital would not release specific details about Marlise Munoz's condition, but officials said the hospital would follow Texas law regarding care during pregnancy.

"We have a responsibility as a good corporate citizen here in Tarrant County to also provide the highest quality care we can for all of our patients," said J.R. Labbe, vice president of communications and community affairs for JPS Health Network, in a statement.

"But at all times, we will follow the law as it is applicable to health care in the state of Texas. And state law here says you cannot withhold or withdraw life sustaining treatment for a pregnant patient. It's that clear."

The husband and wife, both paramedics in the Tarrant County area, have a 14-month-old son named Mateo.

Erick Munoz and Marlise Munoz's mother did not immediately respond to requests for comment from CNN.

Erick Munoz found his wife unconscious on November 26, around 2 a.m. He performed CPR on her and then called 911, WFAA reported.

Since that day, the pregnant woman has been on life support, her husband said. Tests have shown that the fetus has a normal heart beat, he said. At 24 weeks, doctors may know more about when the fetus can be taken out, Munoz's family told WFAA. Doctors have also discussed the possibility of taking the fetus to full term.

He told WFAA that his wife had said she would not want to be kept alive by machine, and said he has reached "the point where you wish that your wife's body would stop."

Munoz wears his wife's pink and blue bracelets on his wrist, WFAA reported. Her wedding ring is on his pinkie.

When Munoz walks in the door, he said his son Mateo is waiting for his mother to show up.

"You can see it in his eyes," Munoz said.
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Old 12-25-2013, 09:46 AM   #46
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
You make a good point about the mother and I doubt she would want to abort her baby. But would she also want to carry a dead baby with her? I would suspect not.

I will add there was a case in Europe a few years ago where a woman suffered a brain aneursym that was 25 weeks pregnant. They kept her alive for 2 days, injected her with a bunch of steroids and delivered the baby. The baby was fine and when they pulled the plug she died immediately after. But there is a huge difference IMO between a 14 week old fetus and one 25 weeks along with the fact this current case she was unconscious for an extended period of time. I guess we will find out though and I do hope there is a good outcome out of all of this, I really do.
Will be an interesting case study afterwards when looked at through the new prism of ObamaCare and what will be paid for/not paid, allowed/not allowed. One would have to assume at this point the mother and baby would be best off under the care of a Catholic Hospital not constrained by HHS rules
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Old 12-25-2013, 10:06 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
You make a good point about the mother and I doubt she would want to abort her baby. But would she also want to carry a dead baby with her? I would suspect not.

I will add there was a case in Europe a few years ago where a woman suffered a brain aneursym that was 25 weeks pregnant. They kept her alive for 2 days, injected her with a bunch of steroids and delivered the baby. The baby was fine and when they pulled the plug she died immediately after. But there is a huge difference IMO between a 14 week old fetus and one 25 weeks along with the fact this current case she was unconscious for an extended period of time. I guess we will find out though and I do hope there is a good outcome out of all of this, I really do.
For my own part I would want to save the baby. I would think of it as a last gift from the woman I loved~
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Old 12-25-2013, 02:31 PM   #48
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If she had consented to anal sex there wouldn't be a problem. Why can't women see the big picture?
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Old 12-25-2013, 03:07 PM   #49
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This is pretty dumb to me. Ok, yes you talked about not wanting to live on life support, but in those conversations, did you ever talk about extenuating circumstances? You know, did you ever ask, "but what if you're pregnant?"

Personally, I doubt that ever came up. If it had, she just might have changed her tune. Just like if you asked her if she'd want to be uncomfortable, hormonal, fat, achy and unattractive for 9 months, she'd probably say no. If you mentioned that it'd bring a child into her life, she might just say "well in that case, yeah".

This to me, sounds like a guy who is scared to raise a child on his own, and is just coward enough to kill his child to avoid it.
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Old 12-25-2013, 03:07 PM   #50
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This is pretty dumb to me. Ok, yes you talked about not wanting to live on life support, but in those conversations, did you ever talk about extenuating circumstances? You know, did you ever ask, "but what if you're pregnant?"

Personally, I doubt that ever came up. If it had, she just might have changed her tune. Just like if you asked her if she'd want to be uncomfortable, hormonal, fat, achy and unattractive for 9 months, she'd probably say no. If you mentioned that it'd bring a child into her life, she might just say "well in that case, yeah".

To me, this sounds like a guy who is scared to raise a child on his own, and is just coward enough to kill his child to avoid it.
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Old 12-25-2013, 09:05 PM   #51
listopencil listopencil is offline
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I have seen this thread float up and down the DC forum and I think about it every time I read the title. I have tried too see things from the husband's point of view...and I just can't. I understand not wanting to be artificially kept alive on life support. I had that talk with my own wife long before she died and we agreed on what we would do. From the info in that article I would say:

1) Mom did not want her life to be artificially carried on when there was no benefit to it.

2) Mom lived in Texas and I would have to assume that she was aware of the law, especially being a paramedic herself.

3) There is no point in the article where Dad mentions any discussions he had with Mom regarding this particular situation.

4) I see nothing in the article that would indicate to me that Mom would have gone along with this.


I think Dad is breaking down and can't take the pain of dealing with the living corpse that was his wife. This may sound harsh but...tough shit. To have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part. I don't see anywhere in there where it says "...bail when the shit hits the fan..." Do your ****ing duty and allow your wife to give one last gift to the world even if you're too ****ed in the head to appreciate it right now. I hope he gets the help he needs.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:59 AM   #52
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sup, hootie?
Hootie? No, just a Colts fan who wandered in for the game last week and started looking around. Cool place y'all got here.

Regards, Hoopsdoc.
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Old 12-26-2013, 11:04 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by crossbow View Post
If she had consented to anal sex there wouldn't be a problem. Why can't women see the big picture?
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:49 PM   #54
Ebolapox Ebolapox is offline
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This is pretty dumb to me. Ok, yes you talked about not wanting to live on life support, but in those conversations, did you ever talk about extenuating circumstances? You know, did you ever ask, "but what if you're pregnant?"

Personally, I doubt that ever came up. If it had, she just might have changed her tune. Just like if you asked her if she'd want to be uncomfortable, hormonal, fat, achy and unattractive for 9 months, she'd probably say no. If you mentioned that it'd bring a child into her life, she might just say "well in that case, yeah".

To me, this sounds like a guy who is scared to raise a child on his own, and is just coward enough to kill his child to avoid it.
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:57 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebolapox View Post
This is pretty dumb to me. Ok, yes you talked about not wanting to live on life support, but in those conversations, did you ever talk about extenuating circumstances? You know, did you ever ask, "but what if you're pregnant?"

Personally, I doubt that ever came up. If it had, she just might have changed her tune. Just like if you asked her if she'd want to be uncomfortable, hormonal, fat, achy and unattractive for 9 months, she'd probably say no. If you mentioned that it'd bring a child into her life, she might just say "well in that case, yeah".

To me, this sounds like a guy who is scared to raise a child on his own, and is just coward enough to kill his child to avoid it.
Seems to me that you are injecting your morality into a situation while having the luxury of dealing with only hypothetical consequences.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:40 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Ebolapox View Post
This is pretty dumb to me. Ok, yes you talked about not wanting to live on life support, but in those conversations, did you ever talk about extenuating circumstances? You know, did you ever ask, "but what if you're pregnant?"

Personally, I doubt that ever came up. If it had, she just might have changed her tune. Just like if you asked her if she'd want to be uncomfortable, hormonal, fat, achy and unattractive for 9 months, she'd probably say no. If you mentioned that it'd bring a child into her life, she might just say "well in that case, yeah".

To me, this sounds like a guy who is scared to raise a child on his own, and is just coward enough to kill his child to avoid it.

Kind of a weird post.
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:14 AM   #57
Ebolapox Ebolapox is offline
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
Kind of a weird post.
really ****ing weird: I didn't type it or submit it.
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:14 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Ebolapox View Post
really ****ing weird: I didn't type it or submit it.
mods, can you look into this? I don't type that way. I only capitalize 'I' at the beginning of sentences. go back and look at my previous posting record. it's rather obvious.
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:15 AM   #59
J Diddy J Diddy is offline
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Originally Posted by Ebolapox View Post
really ****ing weird: I didn't type it or submit it.
Huh? You been hacked?

Snowden is up in this bitch!
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:16 AM   #60
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hey, can someone report this shit for me? I can't for some reason and I don't appreciate someone either hacking my account or posting something like that under my username for any reason.
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