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Old 12-27-2013, 07:11 PM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Democrats choose to fund illegal tax refunds instead of military pensions

Here's a new topic for Direckshun...

Senate GOP fails in final bid to block military pension cuts in budget bill

A final effort by Senate Republicans to halt cuts to pensions of military retirees failed late Tuesday, after Democrats blocked an amendment to the controversial budget bill.

The two-year budget agreement, which cleared a key test vote earlier in the day, was expected to get a final vote no later than Wednesday.

Ahead of the final vote, Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., tried unsuccessfully to use a parliamentary tactic to force a vote on the amendment, which he wrote to undo the cuts for military retirees.

A provision in the already House-passed bill would cut retirement benefits for military retirees by $6 billion over 10 years.

Sessions wanted to instead eliminate an estimated $4.2 billion in annual spending by reining in an IRS credit that illegal immigrants have claimed.

He and fellow senators argued the bill unfairly sticks veterans and other military retirees with the cost of new spending.

“It’s not correct, and it should not happen,” Sessions said on the floor.

"By blocking my amendment, they voted to cut pensions for wounded warriors," he said afterwards. "Senators in this chamber have many valid ideas for replacing these pension cuts, including my proposal to close the tax welfare loophole for illegal filers, and all deserved a fair and open hearing. But they were denied.”

Sessions’ office claimed the vote Tuesday to block the amendment was a vote to "cut military pensions instead of cutting welfare for illegal immigrants."

Senate Budget Committee Chairman Patty Murray, D-Wash.,who brokered the budget deal with House counterpart Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., argued the GOP effort was really an attempt to kill the entire bill.

The Republican-led House passed the bill last week in an effort to avoid another stalemate leading to a potential government shutdown, like the one in October that polls showed was largely unpopular with voters.

The two-year budget deal would ease for two years some of the harshest cuts to agency budgets required under automatic spending curbs commonly known as sequestration. It would replace $45 billion in scheduled cuts for the 2014 budget year already underway, easing about half of the scheduled cuts.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...o-budget-bill/

There's something inherently wrong with a system where senators aren't drug out and clubbed to death like baby seals when they choose to give tax dollars to illegal instead of wounded veterans.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:36 PM   #46
tredadda tredadda is offline
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I agree that this is something that should be much lower on the list of things to cut. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be cut.

I know this won't be popular but let's be honest, military pensions are outrageous. Retiring with 50% pay after only 20 years is ludicrous.
Disagree. Those pensions are available to all Americans. Unfortunately 99% of America says "no" when it comes to serving. Of the 1% that do serve less than 25% stay the full 20 years. To think that the reward of a pension is ludicrous for that very, very small segment of society that do what the majority of Americans can't or won't do due to any multitude of reasons is ludicrous.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and not serve and then complain about the benefits given to those who do it voluntarily which eliminates mandatory service. Those vets are worth every penny that they are entitled to and to have politicians who make six figures a year and can't seem to accomplish anything and still get a pension and benefits for life is sickening.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:38 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I don't base my opinions on these matters on emotional factors. Fishermen, loggers and steel workers have a higher fatality rate than a member of the Air Force, does that mean they should have ridiculous pension plans as well?

I don't like the idea of changing pensions after the fact but the lack of a cost of living increase really isn't a huge deal when looked at in relation to what is an already generous plan.

To be clear, I think there are MUCH higher priority cuts that can be made but as long as we are in the red I will support ANY reasonable cut.
There is a mark difference between a fisherman and a Soldier. The fact that you are even trying to compare the two is sad.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:44 PM   #48
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Call me a simple dick, but I liked the concept of the sequester. It hurt everyone and by God it should.
The problem with the sequester in regards to the DoD budget is the fact that those who should feel the pain of the cuts are not feeling it. It is the servicemember who is paying the price for this. The politicians and senior military brass made sure to protect those who fund their campaigns and buy crap we don't need on the backs of those who serve.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:50 PM   #49
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And I'm not trying to persuade you on anything. You asked for documentation, I tried to provide it and found the best thing I could with no indignation at all.

If I did I apologize because all I thought I did was try to answer your question. In this forum I'm not sure what more you expect.

If you can find evidence something else happened I didn't document or posted wrong feel free to find it. I doubt you can find an instance where I didn't admit I was wrong when proven otherwise.
That is neither my purpose nor intent. We're discussing this. I just feel that somewhere in this is some political shenanigans that is being obscured by the obvious heart felt sentiment that we are taking from veterans and giving to illegals. In reality, with all things being equal, that most likely is the case; however, it is not the desired outcome nor the intended consequence. These items are unrelated, and truth be told, despite the fact that this report was put out in 2010 is just now coming to light.

It is a political ploy. I don't agree with the fact that 4 point whatever billion dollars are getting sent to illegal workers and I think it should stop. I don't agree with taking away anything from our vets (however, truth be told they are not getting disrespected (and I'm not concrete on those figures so please show me where I am wrong if that is the case).

The bottom line is this. if we wish to get out of this mess everybody must throw something sacred into the volcano.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:56 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by tredadda View Post
There is a mark difference between a fisherman and a Soldier. The fact that you are even trying to compare the two is sad.
There certainly are many differences but I pointed out one factor that many use to justify the higher pensions. Again, try to leave the emotional crap off the table. I ignore it when the liberals try to bully with it and I'll ignore it in this discussion as well.

Serving your country through military service is an honorable thing that deserves a degree of increased compensation and long term financial security. That is something we can agree on. Where we disagree is the idea that after 20 years a healthy person who is 38 years old should receive 50% of their pay for the remainder of their life. If I had gone to the Air Force Academy, I'd be "retiring" about now with $3k/month or more for life. I really don't see any way that's not a bit ridiculous.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:57 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
This is pretty much my stance as well. To me, there is a difference between having huge respect for our military(which I do) and deifying them.

Personally I'd gut the hell out of damn near every entitlement program before I'd address military pensions... BUT I'd still address it all the same.
I think a chunk of change cut one time would do some damage to the deficit.

it might suck for a year, but what's a year when compared to forever
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:01 PM   #52
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There certainly are many differences but I pointed out one factor that many use to justify the higher pensions. Again, try to leave the emotional crap off the table. I ignore it when the liberals try to bully with it and I'll ignore it in this discussion as well.

Serving your country through military service is an honorable thing that deserves a degree of increased compensation and long term financial security. That is something we can agree on. Where we disagree is the idea that after 20 years a healthy person who is 38 years old should receive 50% of their pay for the remainder of their life. If I had gone to the Air Force Academy, I'd be "retiring" about now with $3k/month or more for life. I really don't see any way that's not a bit ridiculous.
The messed up thing is that the "cuts" are the 1% cost of living increase annually from those up until they hit 62. Factor that in with the free education, healthcare for life.
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:10 PM   #53
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The messed up thing is that the "cuts" are the 1% cost of living increase annually from those up until they hit 62. Factor that in with the free education, healthcare for life.
If all this is so great what stopped you from taking advantage of them?
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:16 PM   #54
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If all this is so great what stopped you from taking advantage of them?
For me it was a few simple factors that made me choose U-M over the Air Force Academy. Legit sports teams at U-M, better aerospace program, and most importantly.. at the time it looked like the need for actual "soldiers" was rapidly dying off. This was post-Gulf War and the prevailing thought was that we would continue to automate and avoid unecessary ground actions if at all possible. Also, the difference in contribution for an aerospace engineer who is a member of the Air Force and one who works for a govt contractor is marginal.

BTW I still think our overuse of ground forces is a travesty in today's world.
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:25 PM   #55
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That is neither my purpose nor intent. We're discussing this. I just feel that somewhere in this is some political shenanigans that is being obscured by the obvious heart felt sentiment that we are taking from veterans and giving to illegals. In reality, with all things being equal, that most likely is the case; however, it is not the desired outcome nor the intended consequence. These items are unrelated, and truth be told, despite the fact that this report was put out in 2010 is just now coming to light.

It is a political ploy. I don't agree with the fact that 4 point whatever billion dollars are getting sent to illegal workers and I think it should stop. I don't agree with taking away anything from our vets (however, truth be told they are not getting disrespected (and I'm not concrete on those figures so please show me where I am wrong if that is the case).

The bottom line is this. if we wish to get out of this mess everybody must throw something sacred into the volcano.
It's totally related. In any budget, household or otherwise what you take from your left hand you can put in your right hand. I agree you have an argument on the amount but when it comes to vets I don't understand how you don't let the amendment go forward or at least barter on the dollars.

Again, our discussion remains the same, the democrats decided in favor of illegal tax loopholes instead of veterans.
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:28 PM   #56
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For me it was a few simple factors that made me choose U-M over the Air Force Academy. Legit sports teams at U-M, better aerospace program, and most importantly.. at the time it looked like the need for actual "soldiers" was rapidly dying off. This was post-Gulf War and the prevailing thought was that we would continue to automate and avoid unecessary ground actions if at all possible. Also, the difference in contribution for an aerospace engineer who is a member of the Air Force and one who works for a govt contractor is marginal.

BTW I still think our overuse of ground forces is a travesty in today's world.
Fair enough. I have no issues with those who chose not to serve honestly as it is not for everyone. But I think it is a shame that those who chose not to serve for whatever reason want to take benefits from those who did because they think it is "unfair". Without all those benefits it would be very hard to continuously field an all voluntary military and sustain it and would force the government to fill the ranks with more unpopular methods. It is a perk for the very, very few of society who not just say yes, but continue to say yes for 20 + years of their life when they could possibly be doing careers that pay far better. Oh and I completely agree with the bolded part.
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:32 PM   #57
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That is neither my purpose nor intent. We're discussing this. I just feel that somewhere in this is some political shenanigans that is being obscured by the obvious heart felt sentiment that we are taking from veterans and giving to illegals. In reality, with all things being equal, that most likely is the case; however, it is not the desired outcome nor the intended consequence. These items are unrelated, and truth be told, despite the fact that this report was put out in 2010 is just now coming to light.

It is a political ploy. I don't agree with the fact that 4 point whatever billion dollars are getting sent to illegal workers and I think it should stop. I don't agree with taking away anything from our vets (however, truth be told they are not getting disrespected (and I'm not concrete on those figures so please show me where I am wrong if that is the case).

The bottom line is this. if we wish to get out of this mess everybody must throw something sacred into the volcano.
Again I agree, but the waste that should be eliminated from the DoD budget is not being eliminated. Instead it is benefits given to those who either currently serve or have served. The wrong things are being thrown into the volcano.
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:11 PM   #58
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Where did I say that?
line 2 of your OP.
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:16 PM   #59
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line 2 of your OP.
There isn't two lines in the thread title.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:01 PM   #60
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If all this is so great what stopped you from taking advantage of them?
Turns out they don't want people with epilepsy or congenital heart defects. Not that I didn't try.
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