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Old 01-11-2014, 01:54 PM  
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Frank Turek, Answering Hawking and his The Grand Design

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Old 01-14-2014, 11:54 AM   #46
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Why is it people feel compelled to have to convince other people to believe in God? I mean seriously I don't get it. If it is supposed to be your "faith" why is it so important to get validation from others who don't agree with your beliefs? Do other religions do this? I have never heard of it. Maybe they just kill each other instead?
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:56 AM   #47
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I saw the same debate and did not see what you saw I saw Hitchens avoid Turek's questions over and over with that snub English insecure demeanor.

Here watch John Lennox hand Hitchens his ass

Ok, that was very interesting. I watched the entire thing. I disagree that "Lennox hands Hitchens his ass"

I'm a believer. Having said that, stating over and over again, like Lennox did, that he knows something to be true because the bible says so doesn't do it for me. I actually think Hitchens comments that human beings have been around for at least 100K years and it's just in the last 2000 or so that god really gives a hoot, is rather enlightening. Certainly worth more debate.
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:07 AM   #48
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So if the answer is no. 2 that "Someone created something out of nothing", and I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that "Someone" you say is God, then who created God?
One thing is for certain, if he were to tell you it would be like trying to teach a fly how to rebuild an engine.
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:24 AM   #49
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One thing is for certain, if he were to tell you it would be like trying to teach a fly how to rebuild an engine.
That's certainly what the goat herders thought 2000 years ago.

Meanwhile, NASA is currently driving a remote controlled nuclear powered robot around planet Mars....
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:26 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by BigRichard View Post
So if the answer is no. 2 that "Someone created something out of nothing", and I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that "Someone" you say is God, then who created God?
Basically, it's the logical argument that says if something exists, it must have had a cause...that's the way everything we know and see comes to be. But, it's logically impossible for things to go back ad-infinitum. Therefore, logically, there must be an un-caused cause. That cause in my view and the view of believers, is God. God is not a creation. God IS. It's hard to wrap your brain around, but logically, what other answer could there be?
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:28 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Superbowltrashcan View Post
Why is it people feel compelled to have to convince other people to believe in God? I mean seriously I don't get it. If it is supposed to be your "faith" why is it so important to get validation from others who don't agree with your beliefs? Do other religions do this? I have never heard of it. Maybe they just kill each other instead?
Christians have a concern for lost souls and the love and saving grace provided by the death and ressurrection of Christ is something that Christians filled compelled to tell. Interesting that you think you feel you are trying to be convinced to believe in God. It is not unusual for people to have questions etc, but it is interesting that sometimes people don't like the answer therefore they don't want to believe. That in itself creates a debate.
There is no validation needed from others. It is what choice is all about.
you choose one way...someone chooses another.
Whether you believe or not is your choice. At the end of it all...God will validate for all of us.
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:34 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Basically, it's the logical argument that says if something exists, it must have had a cause...that's the way everything we know and see comes to be. But, it's logically impossible for things to go back ad-infinitum. Therefore, logically, there must be an un-caused cause. That cause in my view and the view of believers, is God. God is not a creation. God IS. It's hard to wrap your brain around, but logically, what other answer could there be?
What logical argument are you talking about?

Why do you say it's logically impossible for things to go back ad-infinitum?
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:37 AM   #53
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:37 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
Christians have a concern for lost souls and the love and saving grace provided by the death and ressurrection of Christ is something that Christians filled compelled to tell. Interesting that you think you feel you are trying to be convinced to believe in God. It is not unusual for people to have questions etc, but it is interesting that sometimes people don't like the answer therefore they don't want to believe. That in itself creates a debate.
There is no validation needed from others. It is what choice is all about.
you choose one way...someone chooses another.
Whether you believe or not is your choice. At the end of it all...God will validate for all of us in my opinion
Fixed your post~
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:55 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
What logical argument are you talking about?

Why do you say it's logically impossible for things to go back ad-infinitum?
Um...you highlighted it. Nothing can come from nothing, something had to cause it.

So...you really believe that time just keeps going back and back and back ad-infinitum and nothing has been caused by a first cause? Since, in all of human history, we have never seen anything come to be without it being caused, logic dictates that all things need a cause. This seems like a logical thought. Am I wrong?
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:05 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Um...you highlighted it. Nothing can come from nothing, something had to cause it.

So...you really believe that time just keeps going back and back and back ad-infinitum and nothing has been caused by a first cause? Since, in all of human history, we have never seen anything come to be without it being caused, logic dictates that all things need a cause. This seems like a logical thought. Am I wrong?
I agree with your conclusion, but your explanation is a little imprecise. It is possible for things to go back ad infinitum in time (in a temporal series). That time had a beginning is something we learn by revelation. Creation is not something that can be "proved" per se, but is a tenet of faith. That being said, all things do need a cause and things cannot go back ad infinitum in a simultaneous series (all at the same time)...there must be some "first" in the series to explain the series (and that "first" can be outside of the series). Even the Big Bang Theory allows that there could have been a "big crunch" that occurred before the Big Bang. There is simply no way to "prove" that any kind of temporal infinite regress is impossible.
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:11 PM   #57
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I agree with your conclusion, but your explanation is a little imprecise. It is possible for things to go back ad infinitum in time (in a temporal series). That time had a beginning is something we learn by revelation. Creation is not something that can be "proved" per se, but is a tenet of faith. That being said, all things do need a cause and things cannot go back ad infinitum in a simultaneous series (all at the same time)...there must be some "first" in the series to explain the series (and that "first" can be outside of the series). Even the Big Bang Theory allows that there could have been a "big crunch" that occurred before the Big Bang. There is simply no way to "prove" that any kind of temporal infinite regress is impossible.
Certainly, I was simply stating that it's certainly logical to believe that there must be a first cause. Even the Big Crunch needs a cause. I don't believe that it's logical to simply write it off like "oh well, there can't be a God so things just showed up" if you will. Weather or not that first cause is "God" is up for debate I suppose, but it seems logical to deduce that it exists, outside of what it caused.
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:31 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Um...you highlighted it. Nothing can come from nothing, something had to cause it.

So...you really believe that time just keeps going back and back and back ad-infinitum and nothing has been caused by a first cause? Since, in all of human history, we have never seen anything come to be without it being caused, logic dictates that all things need a cause. This seems like a logical thought. Am I wrong?
That's not using logic though. Logic isn't what seems right.

We can't necessarily assume that something cannot come from nothing because we haven't yet observed it. That's a fallacy of composition.

The idea you're referring to called Infinite Regress. It's the Cosmological Argument or the Argument from First Cause. Yes, it's true that in our observation of our world, we can observe casual relationships. But we cannot simply apply that to the entirety of the universe.

For what it's worth, this has been a debate for thousands of years.
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:38 PM   #59
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That's not using logic though. Logic isn't what seems right.

We can't necessarily assume that something cannot come from nothing because we haven't yet observed it. That's a fallacy of composition.

The idea you're referring to called Infinite Regress. It's the Cosmological Argument or the Argument from First Cause. Yes, it's true that in our observation of our world, we can observe casual relationships. But we cannot simply apply that to the entirety of the universe.

For what it's worth, this has been a debate for thousands of years.
Indeed it has.

I'm curious though, if we can't observe something and then come up with a conclusion that would be deemed logical, then...can you give me an example of a logical thought or argument?

I've always thought of logic as using the information you have and applying it. If we can't apply that to the entirety of the universe which we've never seen or ever will see, we can only apply it to what we know. And what we know logically points to a first cause. Can logic point to infinite regress?
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:40 PM   #60
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Also, would it be a fallacy of composition to assume that something CAN come from nothing?
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