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Old 01-11-2014, 01:54 PM  
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Frank Turek, Answering Hawking and his The Grand Design

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Old 01-15-2014, 12:49 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Certainly, I was simply stating that it's certainly logical to believe that there must be a first cause. Even the Big Crunch needs a cause. I don't believe that it's logical to simply write it off like "oh well, there can't be a God so things just showed up" if you will. Weather or not that first cause is "God" is up for debate I suppose, but it seems logical to deduce that it exists, outside of what it caused.
Where did god come from? Because if you make an exception for him then why not just say the universe has always existed. Its way easier.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:52 PM   #62
InChiefsHell InChiefsHell is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Where did god come from? Because if you make an exception for him then why not just say the universe has always existed. Its way easier.
Heh. Good one. I guess either argument could be considered equally logical\illogical. However, since we have no knowledge of anything coming from nothing, I still say it makes sense that something had to cause the universe, but logically that something had to be un-caused.
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:55 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Superbowltrashcan View Post
Why is it people feel compelled to have to convince other people to believe in God? I mean seriously I don't get it. If it is supposed to be your "faith" why is it so important to get validation from others who don't agree with your beliefs? Do other religions do this? I have never heard of it. Maybe they just kill each other instead?
Really? They (religions) all proselytize.
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:56 PM   #64
InChiefsHell InChiefsHell is offline
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Originally Posted by lawrenceRaider View Post
Really? They (religions) all proselytize.
Indeed. If you believe that your neighbors house is on fire, don't you owe it to him to at least tell him about it, even if he doesn't think it's burning?
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:06 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Any religion is human fantasy.

The Bible, like all religious texts, was written by people. The even had synods debating which books of the bible to include in the New Testament.
Thank you. Not enough Christians, the majority, know the history of their own damn religion. God did not publish the bible. Power hungry religious zealots did. The sat in a room and voted on which books to put in the ****ing thing! How anyone can believe the literal word of the bible is literally beyond my comprehension. I cannot grasp it. A vote this way or that way, and they would be calling one of their current prophetic stories blasphemy, and bashing those that believe it as truth. Just ****ing stupid.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:12 PM   #66
InChiefsHell InChiefsHell is offline
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Originally Posted by bowener View Post
Thank you. Not enough Christians, the majority, know the history of their own damn religion. God did not publish the bible. Power hungry religious zealots did. The sat in a room and voted on which books to put in the ****ing thing! How anyone can believe the literal word of the bible is literally beyond my comprehension. I cannot grasp it. A vote this way or that way, and they would be calling one of their current prophetic stories blasphemy, and bashing those that believe it as truth. Just ****ing stupid.
Take a breath son. Your hyperbole belies your ability to understand that it took a lot more than "power hungry religious zealots" to compile the canon of scripture. Of course I can only say that about the Christian bible, I don't know jack about the Quran or the Torah, or any other books that other religions hold true.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:23 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Indeed it has.

I'm curious though, if we can't observe something and then come up with a conclusion that would be deemed logical, then...can you give me an example of a logical thought or argument?

I've always thought of logic as using the information you have and applying it. If we can't apply that to the entirety of the universe which we've never seen or ever will see, we can only apply it to what we know. And what we know logically points to a first cause. Can logic point to infinite regress?
The question puts logic in a difficult spot. It's not really completely possible to deduce this very simply to form one logical statement.

Here's some thought to chew on...

Quote:
Logic itself has very little to say about time, or about infinite chains of consequences, either extending forwards or backwards. Indeed, it has nothing at all to say. Logic is merely a tool which we use to investigate topics, but anything it has to say on the subject are from premisses which we supply. So what is logically possible depends on the premises we adopt.

Obviously, if we assume that there cannot be infinite regresses, we will conclude that infinite regresses are impossible; and if we assume that everything must have a cause, then infinite regress is necessary. Boldly asserting our assumptions is not a form of logical deduction, however. So we must try to avoid doing so if we wish to consider logical possibility or necessity.

We can observe that the two statements — everything must have a cause, and that there cannot be an infinite regress of causes — are in apparent conflict with one another. There is one possible resolution: a cycle of causes, where A ⇒ B ⇒ C ⇒ A, and the like, including potentially complicated networks of mutual-causation. If you find this just as dissatisfying as an infinite regress of causes or an uncaused event, then you may wish to assume that such cycles cannot exist: but then you should remain aware that this is an assumption on your part.

There is absolutely no proposition A that we know of, which "causes" another proposition B to hold — that is, where A ⇒ B — which prevents us from considering yet another proposition Z such that Z ⇒ A, and where we may regard A as true because Z is true. So every proposition can be conceived of as being caused by another. But there is nothing which forces us to formulate such a proposition Z, either. We must move beyond mere sentential logic if we wish to plumb this idea further.


The Principle of Sufficient Cause is very much in sympathy with determinism; but of course assuming that the world is deterministic does not prevent us from entertaining the idea of a further cause to any particular cause that we might like to imagine — so more physical assumptions beyond mere determinism would be necessary to make the notion of determinism useful.

Consider an "actual infinity" of regress — that is, where one may not only posit a preceding cause for any cause, but actually entertain a completed chain of causes. One might try to argue that an actual infinity of anything (logical causes or otherwise) is absurd; and while this was an active debate in philosophy of mathematics in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the consensus is heavily in favour of actual infinities; a simple rejection of actual infinities is not likely to be convincing to others. But even if you only admit potential infinities of causes, you still have a potentially-infinite-regress, where the only reason why you don't entertain a cause for some early event is because you get caught up in doing something else instead. (The tendancy for us to do so is a possible reason why the idea of a first cause is so popular in the first place.)

The fact that there may, or may not be, a largest infinity which describes an infinite regress, is more ambivalent. Few people are terribly concerned about the subject so far as I can tell. However, the fact that one could always posit "a larger infinity", a la Cantor, is no rebuttal against an actual infinity of causes (despite the fact that this is in effect what Aristotle does for his Prime Mover): there is also nothing preventing someone from positing a cause for what otherwise would appear to be a Prime Mover. Whether one prefers a system of reason in which largest possible cardinalities exist, or do not, is a matter of taste; this is an impasse for the debate.

If you are of a religious persuasion — and in particular, a creationist — then it will seem quite natural to posit that there is a first cause. Suffice it to say that there are many people who will find your arguments unconvincing, if for no other reason than the fact that they do not agree to the assumptions included in your religious background.

I am unaware of any particularly compelling ideas — or for that matter, any particularly interesting ideas — which would decide in favour either of infinite regress, or in favour of the impossibility of infinite regress, as logical necessities. As far as I can tell, both the notion of a first cause and the notion of an infinite causal regress are logically coherent — except if you in essence assume that one of them is false.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:28 PM   #68
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Since human beings haven't even begun to understand the inner workings of the universe, when, where, if, it started, etc., then it is a complete fallacy to think that, at least at this point in time or even in the near future, we will be able to prove or disprove whether or not the universe was created or if it always existed, and whether or not there is a god and if indeed that is the entity that created the universe or not. Arguing about it, debating it, etc., is really pointless. Neither side of the argument is able to be proven, so both sides are going completely on faith, which, as far as I know, is unique to humans.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:34 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Also, would it be a fallacy of composition to assume that something CAN come from nothing?
No. That statement would be the opposite of a compositional fallacy, I guess. Compositional fallacy is making statements of the whole on observations of a limited set inside the whole.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:37 PM   #70
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Since human beings haven't even begun to understand the inner workings of the universe, when, where, if, it started, etc., then it is a complete fallacy to think that, at least at this point in time or even in the near future, we will be able to prove or disprove whether or not the universe was created or if it always existed, and whether or not there is a god and if indeed that is the entity that created the universe or not. Arguing about it, debating it, etc., is really pointless. Neither side of the argument is able to be proven, so both sides are going completely on faith, which, as far as I know, is unique to humans.
You're correct that neither side is able to be proven. We may never know the answer. But it's certainly not pointless discussion.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:40 PM   #71
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Fish,

Wow. My brain hurts.

I suppose one could decide anything. In my world, when I ask my son to be logical about things, it means I want him to think it through and based on the evidence he has, to reach a conclusion that makes sense.

I think philosophers have made things a lot harder than they need to be. Things are really a lot simpler in my opinion. But the last paragraph of your statement is great:

Quote:
I am unaware of any particularly compelling ideas — or for that matter, any particularly interesting ideas — which would decide in favour either of infinite regress, or in favour of the impossibility of infinite regress, as logical necessities. As far as I can tell, both the notion of a first cause and the notion of an infinite causal regress are logically coherent — except if you in essence assume that one of them is false
So, really...logic is unattainable, at least a universal logic. I guess, after 10 years on CP...I should have guessed that!
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:40 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
No. That statement would be the opposite of a compositional fallacy, I guess. Compositional fallacy is making statements of the whole on observations of a limited set inside the whole.
Tapping out. heh.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:55 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Fish,

Wow. My brain hurts.

I suppose one could decide anything. In my world, when I ask my son to be logical about things, it means I want him to think it through and based on the evidence he has, to reach a conclusion that makes sense.

I think philosophers have made things a lot harder than they need to be. Things are really a lot simpler in my opinion. But the last paragraph of your statement is great:



So, really...logic is unattainable, at least a universal logic. I guess, after 10 years on CP...I should have guessed that!
Heh... yeah the more you think about it, the more confusing it seems...

FYI.. what you're describing with your son sounds like Rationality as opposed to Logic.

And I hope you didn't take my statements the wrong way, considering your last post. I was not initially saying logic could answer the question, just that the approach you were using wasn't actually logical.

Logic is definitely unable to answer the question. It's a great tool, in my opinion one of the best for understanding the world. But it certainly has limitations, and isn't afraid to acknowledge them. And I like that about logic.

Regarding the last paragraph, that's the kicker.

Quote:
both the notion of a first cause and the notion of an infinite causal regress are logically coherent
But are logically coherent. But yet they are still contradictory in regards to what we're discussing. Infinite causal regress means an infinite universe with no beginning. But first cause(creation) requires a beginning.

At this time, we can't make any logical conclusions.....
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:00 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Tapping out. heh.
No. Just pointing out that it isn't a fallacy of composition. It cannot be logically proven right or wrong. Probably just considered an illogical assumption. Not correct or incorrect, but unproven.
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:12 PM   #75
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No. Just pointing out that it isn't a fallacy of composition. It cannot be logically proven right or wrong. Probably just considered an illogical assumption. Not correct or incorrect, but unproven.
No, I meant I was tapping out...haven't thought this hard in a long time. Thanks for the exercise.
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