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Old 01-11-2014, 02:54 PM  
Chiefshrink Chiefshrink is offline
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Frank Turek, Answering Hawking and his The Grand Design

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Old 01-15-2014, 03:14 PM   #76
InChiefsHell InChiefsHell is offline
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Heh... yeah the more you think about it, the more confusing it seems...

FYI.. what you're describing with your son sounds like Rationality as opposed to Logic.

And I hope you didn't take my statements the wrong way, considering your last post. I was not initially saying logic could answer the question, just that the approach you were using wasn't actually logical.

Logic is definitely unable to answer the question. It's a great tool, in my opinion one of the best for understanding the world. But it certainly has limitations, and isn't afraid to acknowledge them. And I like that about logic.

Regarding the last paragraph, that's the kicker.



But are logically coherent. But yet they are still contradictory in regards to what we're discussing. Infinite causal regress means an infinite universe with no beginning. But first cause(creation) requires a beginning.

At this time, we can't make any logical conclusions.....
I guess you are right, it's more about reason than "logic". I'm not even sure I know what the hell logic is now.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:16 PM   #77
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That's certainly what the goat herders thought 2000 years ago.

Meanwhile, NASA is currently driving a remote controlled nuclear powered robot around planet Mars....
And GOD laughs at our feeble attempts....GOD is not bound by the laws of this realm...We couldn't wrap our minds around what he is.....it's simplified for us. Oh look the mortals have space craft..isn't it cute....call me up when you can make the Universe. Rest assured he will have to save us before we completely destroy everything with our gross abuses of power.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:27 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Heh. Good one. I guess either argument could be considered equally logical\illogical. However, since we have no knowledge of anything coming from nothing, I still say it makes sense that something had to cause the universe, but logically that something had to be un-caused.
Also you do realize that we have never observed nothing right?

The whole argument is stupid because no one has ever seen nothing to be able to examine what it might be.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:30 PM   #79
InChiefsHell InChiefsHell is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Also you do realize that we have never observed nothing right?

The whole argument is stupid because no one has ever seen nothing to be able to examine what it might be.
It's because nothing doesn't exist! If it did, we would see it!

HEAD GO BOOOOOM!!
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:35 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Also you do realize that we have never observed nothing right?

The whole argument is stupid because no one has ever seen nothing to be able to examine what it might be.
Bullshit! Atreyu has seen the Nothing.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:41 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
That's not using logic though. Logic isn't what seems right.

We can't necessarily assume that something cannot come from nothing because we haven't yet observed it. That's a fallacy of composition.

The idea you're referring to called Infinite Regress. It's the Cosmological Argument or the Argument from First Cause. Yes, it's true that in our observation of our world, we can observe casual relationships. But we cannot simply apply that to the entirety of the universe.

For what it's worth, this has been a debate for thousands of years.

The type of Infinite Regress that is considered logically problematic is a Simultaneous Infinite Regress. A Temporal Infinite Regress is logically possible.
(I daresay I know more about the Cosmological Argument than anyone on CP---it was the topic of my Master's Thesis in Philosophy)

Actually, we can make an inferential argument from observed causal relationships in our world to the entirety of the universe. To say that we cannot is tantamount to saying that Newton's Laws of Motion do not apply to the entirety of the universe.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:43 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
No, I meant I was tapping out...haven't thought this hard in a long time. Thanks for the exercise.


Have a beer...

When you're ready for more, have a read of this: http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

It's a really great look at this dilemma, from Stephen Hawking.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:46 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post

But are logically coherent. But yet they are still contradictory in regards to what we're discussing. Infinite causal regress means an infinite universe with no beginning. But first cause(creation) requires a beginning.
Oh really???? Tell that to Aristotle in Books 7 and 8 of his Physics where he makes the cosmological argument for the existence of a First Mover (first cause) while acknowledging that the universe is eternal. "First cause" does not mean first in time necessarily, it means first in priority (that's not as circular as it sounds), or the first in the order of causes and that is itself OUTSIDE of the chain of causes.
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Old 01-15-2014, 04:14 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
You're correct that neither side is able to be proven. We may never know the answer. But it's certainly not pointless discussion.
IMO, discussing something that is unprovable at this point in time, is pointless. Discussing ways to prove it has merit however.
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Old 01-15-2014, 04:25 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by otherstar View Post
Oh really???? Tell that to Aristotle in Books 7 and 8 of his Physics where he makes the cosmological argument for the existence of a First Mover (first cause) while acknowledging that the universe is eternal. "First cause" does not mean first in time necessarily, it means first in priority (that's not as circular as it sounds), or the first in the order of causes and that is itself OUTSIDE of the chain of causes.
Well... Aristotle wasn't exactly trying to explain a beginning point anyway. His First Cause was more of an explanation for what started motion and substance. Not necessarily the beginning of the universe. Which I think is why you note "Not first in time necessarily". The question remains as to who moved the unmoved mover?
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:26 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by otherstar View Post
Oh really???? Tell that to Aristotle in Books 7 and 8 of his Physics where he makes the cosmological argument for the existence of a First Mover (first cause) while acknowledging that the universe is eternal. "First cause" does not mean first in time necessarily, it means first in priority (that's not as circular as it sounds), or the first in the order of causes and that is itself OUTSIDE of the chain of causes.
You do know Aristotle was not a physicist yes?

Does energy have to have a cause, could empty space build up a charge over time? Is this impossible in your opinion?
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:30 PM   #87
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And while I'm sure Aristotle was a very nice man and a great thinker in his day, he lived 2000 years ago, before the age of science. Plus as Huck Finn said "I don't take no stock in dead people"
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:38 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Well... Aristotle wasn't exactly trying to explain a beginning point anyway. His First Cause was more of an explanation for what started motion and substance. Not necessarily the beginning of the universe. Which I think is why you note "Not first in time necessarily". The question remains as to who moved the unmoved mover?
Of course he wasn't, he thought the universe was eternal.

To ask "who moved the unmoved mover" either begs the question, or misses the point. Think a little more deeply about that question...
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:43 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
You do know Aristotle was not a physicist yes?
He was, for his time. Since the argument in question more an article apropos to philosophy than physics, I'm justified in citing his work.

Quote:
Does energy have to have a cause, could empty space build up a charge over time? Is this impossible in your opinion?
That's a good question. IMHO, everything has to have some kind of a cause to explain it's very existence. Even in an eternal universe (one that has always existed), it's not logically impossible for there to be some kind of cause of it's existence. I'm more of a philosopher than a physicist, so that's about all I feel comfortable saying right now. Not a cop out, just admitting I don't know everything.
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:43 PM   #90
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And while I'm sure Aristotle was a very nice man and a great thinker in his day, he lived 2000 years ago, before the age of science. Plus as Huck Finn said "I don't take no stock in dead people"
So, are Heisenberg, Newton, and Einstein out too?
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