Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-15-2014, 09:29 PM  
Fairplay Fairplay is offline
MVP
 
Fairplay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: state of mind
Casino cash: $1005031051
Obama "I'll act with or without Congress"

Forward- throw away the Constitution I'll do want I want to do presidency.

2014: The year of action, the power grab marches on.

Obama to Dems: I'll act with or without Congress

WASHINGTON (AP) President Barack Obama has told Senate Democrats he plans to use his executive authority to act in 2014 when Congress stands in his way.
Obama met with senators from his own party Wednesday at the White House. The White House says Obama and Democrats discussed proposals to raise the minimum wage and efforts to pass a comprehensive immigration overhaul. Education initiatives and jobs measures were also on the agenda.

The White House says Obama wants to work with Congress to make progress, but will also act on his own to get things done.

The meeting was the first such session of 2014 and comes two weeks before Obama is set to deliver his State of the Union address.

The senators left the White House without speaking to reporters. Harry Reid left smiling and even skipped to his limosine clasping his hands greedily.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-dems-39-...-politics.html
Posts: 17,323
Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Fairplay has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 09:05 AM   #31
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
Country Santa Year Around
 
HonestChieffan's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the Country in MO
Casino cash: $1264760
If he gets away with it so can every president hereafter. Its time to limit the power and require more oversight
__________________
Frazod to KC Nitwit..."Hey, I saw a picture of some dumpy bitch with a horrible ****tarded giant back tattoo and couldn't help but think of you." Simple, Pure, Perfect. 7/31/2013

Dave Lane: "I have donated more money to people in my life as an atheist that most churches ever will."

Come home to Jesus Dave. Come home.
Posts: 27,996
HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:03 AM   #32
alnorth alnorth is offline
MVP
 
alnorth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Iowania
Casino cash: $12398367
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndChiefs View Post
I see...Making a comment that he hasn't been shy to use/threaten executive orders when he feels he needs to=saying he's out of control.

He's commented on using executive orders to implement his ideas before (for example: gun control). Just because he hasn't used the most executive orders of a President it's not exactly unprecedented to have him/his administration say something like this. Why would it be a surprise that he would say the same thing in regards to this?
The part in bold is wrong.

What he wants requires legislation. What he is able to do via EO is minor penny-ante stuff. Its more like "well I didn't get what I was hoping for in congress, I guess I'll get about 1% of what I want through whatever little irrelevant things I can do through EO."
__________________
<WarMoose> Think about how stupid the average person is. Now realize that half of them are dumber than that.
<Chunda> Why half?
Posts: 25,515
alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:04 AM   #33
alnorth alnorth is offline
MVP
 
alnorth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Iowania
Casino cash: $12398367
Quote:
Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
If he gets away with it so can every president hereafter. Its time to limit the power and require more oversight
What he is "getting away with" is almost nothing. This freakout we've been seeing from the right over executive orders is hilarious.

An executive order can not contradict the law, ever. They are typically used when congress (by passing laws) commands the executive branch to do something, but they either accidentally or intentionally left out some of the minor details.

If the law requires the executive branch to do something but doesn't tell them how to do it, the president can't fold his arms and say "well, you didn't tell me how to do it, so I'll completely ignore the law. I won't do it at all." No, usually the executive branch says something like "well, there's 3 ways to do this thing that congress requires me to do, option A, option B, or option C. Hmm... I'll pick.... option B" and orders his administration to do this thing congress wants via option B. The next president can come in and say "nah, I prefer option A" and change policy through executive order or go "there's this option D that the last administration didn't even think of or consider, we'll do it that way".

In no case is the president writing new law or breaking the law. Congress is usually not interested in getting down to the little nitty-gritty minutia, they often tell the president "do this, spending no more than $X, and make sure you stay within this criteria. You figure out the rest of the details". The president does that through executive orders.
__________________
<WarMoose> Think about how stupid the average person is. Now realize that half of them are dumber than that.
<Chunda> Why half?

Last edited by alnorth; 01-16-2014 at 11:12 AM..
Posts: 25,515
alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:09 AM   #34
gblowfish gblowfish is offline
Be Kind To Your Pets
 
gblowfish's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Glorious Independence, MO
Casino cash: $3181246
OH NOES....
BUY MORE GUNS!!!
Posts: 26,538
gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.gblowfish is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:16 AM   #35
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $473455
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
To give you a chance to act like you have no idea why I posted them.
My guess is that you posted them because you think that every executive order is exactly alike in terms of it's legitimacy. Not surprisingly, you're wrong.

If President X drafts 500 executive orders about how office supplies should be organized in the office supply rooms of the various federal office buildings and President Y only drafts 1 executive order instructing his underlings not to faithfully executive the constitutional laws passed by Congress and signed by a POTUS, then 1 > 500.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:18 AM   #36
alnorth alnorth is offline
MVP
 
alnorth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Iowania
Casino cash: $12398367
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
My guess is that you posted them because you think that every executive order is exactly alike in terms of it's legitimacy. Not surprisingly, you're wrong.

If President X drafts 500 executive orders about how office supplies should be organized in the office supply rooms of the various federal office buildings and President Y only drafts 1 executive order instructing his underlings not to faithfully executive the constitutional laws passed by Congress and signed by a POTUS, then 1 > 500.
That is not an executive order. That is an illegal action waiting for a court injunction, though I'm sure the right presumes that Obama spends every waking moment rubbing his hands in glee thinking "ok, we're gonna do a bunch of illegal stuff, the courts will eventually stop it, but we'll get away with it for a few weeks before they finally get around to issuing an injunction, mwahahaha!"
__________________
<WarMoose> Think about how stupid the average person is. Now realize that half of them are dumber than that.
<Chunda> Why half?
Posts: 25,515
alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:23 AM   #37
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $473455
Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
What he is "getting away with" is almost nothing. This freakout we've been seeing from the right over executive orders is hilarious.
How would you compare it to the freakout from the left that we saw on the same topic (and the similar topic of signing statements) during the GWBush administration?

I agree with most of the rest of your post, btw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
In no case is the president writing new law or breaking the law.
I wouldn't go this far though. I don't know of a case in which the President has ordered an invalid/unconstitutional executive order, but I wouldn't say he hasn't with such confidence (and I doubt that you've got the knowledge of his EOs to do so either). You're probably right, but I'm open to evidence to the contrary.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:26 AM   #38
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $473455
Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
That is not an executive order. That is an illegal action waiting for a court injunction, though I'm sure the right presumes that Obama spends every waking moment rubbing his hands in glee thinking "ok, we're gonna do a bunch of illegal stuff, the courts will eventually stop it, but we'll get away with it for a few weeks before they finally get around to issuing an injunction, mwahahaha!"
Duh. That's what this controversy is about. No one should be saying that ALL EOs are illegal. It's only the ones that are illegal that are illegal. If President Y signs an illegal EO, it's worse than President X signing 500 legal EOs. That's the point and that's why cosmo's post had no persuasive value.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:28 AM   #39
alnorth alnorth is offline
MVP
 
alnorth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Iowania
Casino cash: $12398367
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
How would you compare it to the freakout of the left we saw on the same topic (and the similar topic of signing statements) during the GWBush administration?

I agree with most of the rest of your post, btw.
That was equally stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I wouldn't go this far though. I don't know of a case in which the President has ordered an invalid/unconstitutional executive order, but I wouldn't say he hasn't with such confidence (and I doubt that you've got the knowledge of his EOs to do so either). You're probably right, but I'm open to evidence to the contrary.
Yeah, actually you are right. I'll revise it to say that the president is not intentionally writing new law or breaking the law.

If the president loses in court and an EO gets struck down, thats not really proof of some malicious intent. Sometimes the congress sucks at writing laws, and the law is so vague the president goes "ok, I'm being told to do something but this stupid law is so vague that its hard to tell what. They either want me to do X or Y. I think they want me to do X." A court could later review the text, look up related statutes, look up the congressional record to find intent, and decide "nope, you were told to do Y. Stop doing X, and start doing Y".

Also going back to my above example, the congress can always assert their authority. They could go "we originally left it up to you, but we don't like this Option B that you came up with at all. Option B is stupid. We're passing a law ordering you to do what we told you to do via Option C"
__________________
<WarMoose> Think about how stupid the average person is. Now realize that half of them are dumber than that.
<Chunda> Why half?
Posts: 25,515
alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.alnorth 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:32 AM   #40
blaise blaise is offline
MVP
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Plano, TX
Casino cash: $9709003
Quote:
Originally Posted by gblowfish View Post
OH NOES....
BUY MORE GUNS!!!
OH NOES......CHRISTIE CLOSED A BRIDGE LANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 20,130
blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:35 AM   #41
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $473455
Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
That was equally stupid.



Yeah, actually you are right. I'll revise it to say that the president is not intentionally writing new law or breaking the law.

If the president loses in court and an EO gets struck down, thats not really proof of some malicious intent. Sometimes the congress sucks at writing laws, and the law is so vague the president goes "ok, I'm being told to do something but this stupid law is so vague that its hard to tell what. They either want me to do X or Y. I think they want me to do X." A court could later review the text, look up related statutes, look up the congressional record to find intent, and decide "nope, you were told to do Y. Stop doing X, and start doing Y".
There are three possibilities.

1. Most EOs are perfectly fine (legally speaking) and any criticism should be directed at Congress for leaving so much ambiguity to be filled in by the executive branch.

2. Some EOs could be sincere efforts to stay within the constitution even if they are later struck down by the courts.

3. Some EOs could be raw power grabs made by a president who doesn't expect the courts to intervene, who doesn't expect Congress to have the will to do anything about it, or who knows that the consequences of having either of the first two things happen are trivial.

Without contrary evidence, my money is on (1) pretty much every time.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:49 AM   #42
AndChiefs AndChiefs is offline
Bazinga!
 
AndChiefs's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Casino cash: $41333
Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The part in bold is wrong.

What he wants requires legislation. What he is able to do via EO is minor penny-ante stuff. Its more like "well I didn't get what I was hoping for in congress, I guess I'll get about 1% of what I want through whatever little irrelevant things I can do through EO."
What I said (and you bolded),
Quote:
"He's commented on using executive orders to implement his ideas before (for example: gun control)."
From the NY Times.

Quote:
After the legislation failed, Mr. Obama vowed to take whatever steps his administration could through executive action. He later issued 25 executive orders intended to tighten the rules for gun ownership.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ype=blogs&_r=0

You might argue that he hasn't commented on using executive orders, to this extent, in the past and you'd certainly have an argument there. However, he clearly has both used and vowed to use EO's to accomplish his agenda (or as much of it as he can).
__________________
Posts: 4,837
AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:54 AM   #43
AndChiefs AndChiefs is offline
Bazinga!
 
AndChiefs's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Casino cash: $41333
I'm also not commenting on the possibility/legality of using EO's in such a way to accomplish his goals. I realize he can't just issue an EO for whatever he feels like.

All I was saying (and continue to say), is that we shouldn't be surprised to see Obama threaten the use of EO's if Congress isn't acting. His past behavior already demonstrates that.
__________________
Posts: 4,837
AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.AndChiefs Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 11:59 AM   #44
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $473455
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndChiefs View Post
I'm also not commenting on the possibility/legality of using EO's in such a way to accomplish his goals. I realize he can't just issue an EO for whatever he feels like.
I would change "can't" to "isn't supposed to be able to". There's really no one to stop him unless Congress is willing to impeach or unless the nature of the EO creates a victim who has standing to sue in court. The only other check is the ballot box at the next election.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 12:49 PM   #45
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
Debunking your bullshit
 
cosmo20002's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: KC area
Casino cash: $122211
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
My guess is that you posted them because you think that every executive order is exactly alike in terms of it's legitimacy. Not surprisingly, you're wrong.

If President X drafts 500 executive orders about how office supplies should be organized in the office supply rooms of the various federal office buildings and President Y only drafts 1 executive order instructing his underlings not to faithfully executive the constitutional laws passed by Congress and signed by a POTUS, then 1 > 500.
No, they are not all created equal. But it gives you a idea of frequency of use. And the comment I was responding to merely said how he- (gasp!) Has been using them throughout his administration!

Frankly, the whole premise of fear of the EO is one of those things the right never gave two seconds thought about until they saw Obama do it, and now an EO is an act of the debil! alnorth did a great job explaining the additional details of why this is so stupid, so I'll refer you to those posts for additional info.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
As long as Jesus Christ was the president of the US and approved of it Yes.
Posts: 17,425
cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.