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Old 01-20-2014, 11:33 PM  
Chiefshrink Chiefshrink is offline
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The Incoherence of Atheism - Ravi Zacharias



Ravi is the modern day C.S. Lewis.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:27 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Huh? "Resorting" sounds like it's moving into some sort of bad behavior. I put it up to define what is meant by 'materialism" since I have been using that word. Nothing wrong with that since that is accurate.

If you mean the last line, as in it's "empty of spirituality" I can see that somewhat but since it's the opposite of spiritual why would there be any spirituality in it? There wouldn't be. Buddhism is not materialism, is atheistic but it is still spiritual.
I was quick to the trigger. That is fair enough~
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:34 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
So how do you reject theistic beliefs without coming down on the opposite side of theists on whether God exists or whether there is an afterlife?
Atheism is a gray area. Supposedly there are 6 different types of atheism. Or maybe 17 types, depending on who you believe.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/0...s-of-atheists/

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:41 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Atheism is a gray area. Supposedly there are 6 different types of atheism. Or maybe 17 types, depending on who you believe.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/0...s-of-atheists/

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487
Yeah, and I don't believe everything they teach in most churches, but I'm still a theist. There are a bazillion different organized religions and even more individual faiths, and all of them have the right to practice those beliefs under the first amendment.

But you contend that because different atheists believe different things that it isn't a belief system, and gets some kind of special consideration under the first amendment.

Don't go full retard man.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:58 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
Yeah, and I don't believe everything they teach in most churches, but I'm still a theist. There are a bazillion different organized religions and even more individual faiths, and all of them have the right to practice those beliefs under the first amendment.

But you contend that because different atheists believe different things that it isn't a belief system, and gets some kind of special consideration under the first amendment.

Don't go full retard man.
Um. What?

I said that atheism doesn't require faith. Faith is different than belief. Atheism was protected by the First Amendment in the case listed previously so as not to exclude a group.

Not sure what you're trying to say.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:59 PM   #95
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
Yeah, and I don't believe everything they teach in most churches, but I'm still a theist. There are a bazillion different organized religions and even more individual faiths, and all of them have the right to practice those beliefs under the first amendment.

But you contend that because different atheists believe different things that it isn't a belief system, and gets some kind of special consideration under the first amendment.

Don't go full retard man.
It seems to me your god made this much more confusing than it should be. I have spent countless hours on this subject listening to both sides. I find this subject fascinating spending on average I would estimate 10 hours a week on related materials (books, videos) how anyone can speak with certainty about this is baffling to me~
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:03 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
LOL... no. That doesn't require faith. No different than it doesn't require any faith to not believe in unicorns or leprechauns.

The burden of proof lies with those claiming that a personal god exists.
No, the more apt analogy would be about how much faith it would require to disbelieve in all creatures that you've never personally witnessed or, alternatively, all creatures that aren't catalogued in a credible, authoritative journal (including unicorns, leprechauns, and whatever the next life form we actually discover is).

An atheist doesn't just disbelieve in the Christian God, he disbelieves in all forms of a higher being. Anything less than that faith-based position is a form of agnosticism.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:08 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, the more apt analogy would be about how much faith it would require to disbelieve in all creatures that you've never personally witnessed or, alternatively, all creatures that aren't catalogued in a credible, authoritative journal (including unicorns, leprechauns, and whatever the next life form we actually discover is).

An atheist doesn't just disbelieve in the Christian God, he disbelieves in all forms of a higher being. Anything less than that faith-based position is a form of agnosticism.
What faith is required of atheism pat? Faith in what? You never answered.
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:15 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
What faith is required of atheism pat? Faith in what? You never answered.
My answer was as clear as an answer can be. It was in the 5 words of post 36. You even replied to it.
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:20 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Sorry, but you're wrong.

You can be classified as an atheist simply by not believing theistic claims that are made on faith.

An atheist is someone who does not accept the theistic belief claim that god(s) exist. The theist accepts this claim on faith. The atheistic position is simply that the theist has not met an acceptable burden of proof for their claim. In other words, an atheist is an atheist precisely because he or she is not willing to accept the theist's claim on faith.
So, do you agree then that God might exist?

And do you understand that some atheists would disagree with that possibility?
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:26 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
My answer was as clear as an answer can be. It was in the 5 words of post 36. You even replied to it.
I thought you were being sarcastic.

There is no faith required in not believing. There's no burden of proof when there's nothing to disprove.
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:27 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
So, do you agree then that God might exist?

And do you understand that some atheists would disagree with that possibility?
Yes and yes.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:22 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Yes and yes.
OK, well then we're having a semantic disagreement. The more narrowly defined atheist (I think one of your links called it a strong atheist) has faith that there is no God. The broader definition, includes people I would call agnostic (weak atheist).

I haven't read all of your posts on the subject, but I don't remember ever seeing you acknowledge that believers might be right before. Maybe you have, but this is the first time I've seen it. I'll try to remember it.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:31 PM   #103
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Of course not. Many possibilities could be speculated.

But to argue that all morality and knowing the difference between right and wrong can only come from the one true god is pretty illogical.

My main point was that if religions are a human invention, then by default morality and our current sense of right and wrong are also a human invention.
you'd have to thoroughly define "invention" and have some idea of what you mean by "default morality" before you can make that claim. Did humans "invent" math? Or did we discover it? The same could be said about morality, no matter if there is god or not.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:36 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
My answer was as clear as an answer can be. It was in the 5 words of post 36. You even replied to it.
Not believing = faith?

I'll give you this--you're not afraid to make absurd, far-fetched, almost incredible arguments. A lot of your recent ones have been doozies.

I think a long time ago I said you'd make a good criminal defense attorney. They often have clients who are guilty as hell and their guilt is fairly obvious. Yet the attorney has to come up with something, anything, that they can possibly stretch for argue as a defense. You'd be good at coming up with those arguments.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:42 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Not believing = faith?

I'll give you this--you're not afraid to make absurd, far-fetched, almost incredible arguments. A lot of your recent ones have been doozies.

I think a long time ago I said you'd make a good criminal defense attorney. They often have clients who are guilty as hell and their guilt is fairly obvious. Yet the attorney has to come up with something, anything, that they can possibly stretch for argue as a defense. You'd be good at coming up with those arguments.
If you believe there is no God, you have taken a faith-based position. If you merely don't believe in God but remain open to the possibility that one (or more) may exist, then you don't need faith.
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