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Old 01-20-2014, 10:33 PM  
Chiefshrink Chiefshrink is offline
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The Incoherence of Atheism - Ravi Zacharias



Ravi is the modern day C.S. Lewis.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:41 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by canoworms View Post
Religions share many characteristics. Which of these characteristics (note plural) does atheism share?
Of course, I reject the definitions you've provided as too narrowly crafted. I'm afraid that we won't even be able to agree on what a religion is, much less whether atheism is one.

I backspaced away the rest.

You have my best wishes for your journey. May you find the answers you seek, or may the answers find you. Either way.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:47 PM   #122
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Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:06 AM   #123
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Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
And mcan,RNR,Fish and Dave Lane heard Hitchens and Dawkins and read their word thus they have "faith in atheism"
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:54 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
if the atheist misses on "his faith of no belief in God" and Jesus is God then 'oh nooooooooooooooo!!!
What?

So belief in God is just a protection racket to avoid hell?

Screw that.

Sounds like a shitty deity.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:33 AM   #125
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I don't quite understand the argument that if you are an atheist or agnostic, that you somehow aren't moral. Morals aren't a religion. Being moral is basically caring for your fellow man, not being an asshole, and helping others. Honestly, this is something most Christians don't even do.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:02 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
And mcan,RNR,Fish and Dave Lane heard Hitchens and Dawkins and read their word thus they have "faith in atheism"
This is a asinine post. I listen to both sides unlike you. I have attended several different churches. I would fancy a wager I spend and have spent more reviewing this subject than you do or have. As far as the faith argument it is silly and baseless. You guys cannot even agree with yourselves on this subject nor could the writers of your books yet have the utter arrogance to claim you know~
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:17 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by BWillie View Post
I don't quite understand the argument that if you are an atheist or agnostic, that you somehow aren't moral. Morals aren't a religion. Being moral is basically caring for your fellow man, not being an asshole, and helping others. Honestly, this is something most Christians don't even do.
No, no, no. Being moral is killing, lying and stealing because it serves some perception of the greater good. And you'd better hope I'm right, boy, because one of the guys who's going to be sacrificed is you. I'm sorry, but can't be helped. I'm in a position of advantage over you and that's just the way I see it. Of course, you'll just have to take my word for it because, after all, it's all in the name of a morality. Name it and claim it, man.

But rest easy. I'll explain it all to your wife and kids. I have a feeling that I can get them to understand. They might even grow to be grateful (very grateful, if you get my drift) depending on what they eventually believe.
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Old 01-22-2014, 08:14 AM   #128
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What?

So belief in God is just a protection racket to avoid hell?

Screw that.

Sounds like a shitty deity.
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Originally Posted by RNR View Post
This is a asinine post. I listen to both sides unlike you. I have attended several different churches. I would fancy a wager I spend and have spent more reviewing this subject than you do or have. As far as the faith argument it is silly and baseless. You guys cannot even agree with yourselves on this subject nor could the writers of your books yet have the utter arrogance to claim you know~
Your consciences have been "pricked" and it is always very sobering, never feeling good when it happens. It is very easy to always withdraw into one of the seven deadly sins the "Pride of Life" never acknowledging your soul is morally flawed in need of a permanent repair given by only the Savior himself so that you actually become justified before a Holy God because God cannot be in the presence of sin. When one receives Christ in his/her heart, now God not only sees you but he sees the 'perfect HOLY SACRIFICE of His Son that now lives in your heart regardless of how imperfect you may be for your remaining time here on earth because now you have become justified and perfected in His eyes because of Christ's perfect sacrifice on the cross thus His resurrection defeated sin and Satan forever.

Again, regardless of your interest or lack of interest in Christ you still have to deal with the question of Jesus and who he really is and are his claims really true because your soul depends on it especially when it means 'eternity' which is infinitely forever. Maybe some of you already have acknowledging that Jesus was just a great moral teacher and no more and you are just worm food in the end. Or maybe you have already realized that you are in need of a Savior
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:00 AM   #129
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The Incoherence of Atheism
The alternative to atheism is usually a belief in an invisible man in the sky who possesses magical super-powers, all without a shred of evidence.

Unless you have an emotional need (a paralyzing fear of death) or a cultural need (your family will disown you), religion is crazy.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:07 AM   #130
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Bottom line: If the Christian misses on "his faith" and there is no God, oh well. But if the atheist misses on "his faith of no belief in God" and Jesus is God then 'oh nooooooooooooooo!!!
This is actually pretty big and compelling evidence that religion is a pile of man-made crap.

If I wanted to live a comfortable, cushy lifestyle in the early days of man (remember, high-ranking priests were VERY well-off back then and lived like kings), supported by thousands who loyally tithe, and if I don't want to fear the local king's whim, then religion is not a bad racket. The biggest existential threat to your lifestyle is either disbelief, or (more likely back then) competition from a rival religion trying to do business on my turf. I'd make damned sure to tell everyone that if you don't believe and don't tithe and don't follow my spiritual commands, then you are going to hell.

If I were an omnipotent deity who actually gave half a damn about my people, I wouldn't be so concerned about whether or not people acknowledged my existence, and I wouldn't be so damned petty as to punish disbelief. More than likely it wouldn't be an issue since I would, you know, actually visit the planet regularly and let everyone know I'm here and willing to share my Godly wisdom.

The existence of "believe in God or ELSE!" type of rules only helps prove that man invented religion.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:22 AM   #131
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BINGO !

Bottom line: If the Christian misses on "his faith" and there is no God, oh well. But if the atheist misses on "his faith of no belief in God" and Jesus is God then 'oh nooooooooooooooo!!!

No other figurehead of any religion ever claimed to be God except Jesus. And no other figurehead of any religion ever said HE IS the ONLY WAY to get to heaven except Jesus, who said, "I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE, no man comes to the Father BUT BY ME. Notice Jesus didn't say "a way" or "some way", "a truth or some truth" or "a life or some life" as if there were other options like the Oprah worldview of religion that many do believe. Jesus clearly left no wiggle room here. No other options PERIOD. And no other figurehead of any religion predicted how he would die and then be raised from the dead except Jesus.

Therefore everyone regardless of interest in Jesus or not must come to a decision as to who he really was and are his claims and resurrection true.

Was he a lunatic,liar or Lord as C.S. Lewis once asked as an atheist that ultimately led him to Christ after his exhaustive critical analysis of that very question ?
I love it when people bring in Pascal's Wager. More reliable than just about anything in these debates.

If you don't believe all the events of the New Testament, the lunatic/liar/lord thing breaks down.

If you doubt the veracity of stories that say Jesus walked on water/raised a man from the dead/turned water into wine/etc., you would likely doubt the veracity of every single statement attributed to Jesus.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:00 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
Your consciences have been "pricked" and it is always very sobering, never feeling good when it happens. It is very easy to always withdraw into one of the seven deadly sins the "Pride of Life" never acknowledging your soul is morally flawed in need of a permanent repair given by only the Savior himself so that you actually become justified before a Holy God because God cannot be in the presence of sin. When one receives Christ in his/her heart, now God not only sees you but he sees the 'perfect HOLY SACRIFICE of His Son that now lives in your heart regardless of how imperfect you may be for your remaining time here on earth because now you have become justified and perfected in His eyes because of Christ's perfect sacrifice on the cross thus His resurrection defeated sin and Satan forever.

Again, regardless of your interest or lack of interest in Christ you still have to deal with the question of Jesus and who he really is and are his claims really true because your soul depends on it especially when it means 'eternity' which is infinitely forever. Maybe some of you already have acknowledging that Jesus was just a great moral teacher and no more and you are just worm food in the end. Or maybe you have already realized that you are in need of a Savior
This is the one of the things all religions agree upon. If someone disagrees with you threaten them. The suggestion that Jesus was great moral teacher and not the savior is not a viable option. C.S. Lewis speaks to this very point. If you're unfamiliar with his writings you should look into them regarding this matter. The contradictions in your books are too numerous to list. There were no printing presses or bookstores available when these writings were made. The only way to spread the word was to manually copy these writings. This task was taken on by literate and semi literate people. It was not uncommon for the task to be given to educated slaves which brings up the question of morality but I digress. The other method was to read the writings to those who were illiterate and of course they in turn would spread the word of what they had heard. I need not go into the problems caused by word of mouth. Very quickly the issue of mismatched writings arose. Rather it was a simple mistake or an addition on purpose different versions circulated. Lets take the simple mistake scenario. Once the mistake was identified a correction was made which allows the possibility of the correction being incorrect resulting in three versions. It is undeniable these writings were modified several times through out the centuries. Their have been disputes over authenticity from the very beginning and countless lives have been lost in the balance. Two books I would recommend would be Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why and Forged - Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are. Both are written by Bart D. Ehrman I seriously doubt you will look into any of this as you are among those who believe they already know all they need to know. You will continue to enter into these discussions arrogantly confident whipping out your faith membership card and threatening those who dare to question your beliefs~
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:12 AM   #133
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This is the one of the things all religions agree upon. If someone disagrees with you threaten them. The suggestion that Jesus was great moral teacher and not the savior is not a viable option. C.S. Lewis speaks to this very point. If you're unfamiliar with his writings you should look into them regarding this matter. The contradictions in your books are too numerous to list. There were no printing presses or bookstores available when these writings were made. The only way to spread the word was to manually copy these writings. This task was taken on by literate and semi literate people. It was not uncommon for the task to be given to educated slaves which brings up the question of morality but I digress. The other method was to read the writings to those who were illiterate and of course they in turn would spread the word of what they had heard. I need not go into the problems caused by word of mouth. Very quickly the issue of mismatched writings arose. Rather it was a simple mistake or an addition on purpose different versions circulated. Lets take the simple mistake scenario. Once the mistake was identified a correction was made which allows the possibility of the correction being incorrect resulting in three versions. It is undeniable these writings were modified several times through out the centuries. Their have been disputes over authenticity from the very beginning and countless lives have been lost in the balance. Two books I would recommend would be Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why and Forged - Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are. Both are written by Bart D. Ehrman I seriously doubt you will look into any of this as you are among those who believe they already know all they need to know. You will continue to enter into these discussions arrogantly confident whipping out your faith membership card and threatening those who dare to question your beliefs~
Re: The bolded...

I think Lewis would have been well-served to include that component in his liar/lunatic/lord thinking.

If you're going to examine reasons for the Biblical Jesus to say what he is reported to say and consider the possibilities that he was a lunatic or a liar, why not examine the motives of his followers (and the people who started writing down his teaching decades after his death). That gives you the scenario that Jesus was a real guy who had a following and was a holy man/moral leader/etc., but his followers were liars and/or lunatics.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:27 AM   #134
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I love it when people bring in Pascal's Wager. More reliable than just about anything in these debates.

If you don't believe all the events of the New Testament, the lunatic/liar/lord thing breaks down.

If you doubt the veracity of stories that say Jesus walked on water/raised a man from the dead/turned water into wine/etc., you would likely doubt the veracity of every single statement attributed to Jesus.
Pascals Wager is the point of last retreat, just before exiting the debate and conceding the point.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:33 AM   #135
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You seem desperate to make the case that religion requires a deity. Yours doesn't.
There's also those who worship the state for a religion of the state. Certain ideologies fall into that category. Some of them worship black robed deities. The ones that do hate other religions, in particular Christianity (most dominant one in this country), because it competes with the state and because those religions cherish a higher power than the state.
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