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Old 01-31-2014, 06:25 PM  
petegz28 petegz28 is online now
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Income Inequality and the real reason it needs to be addressed

Okay, the Left loves to rant about "fairness" when it comes to income inequality but that's a bunch of liberal BS. So let's get past the emotional arguments of fair vs. unfair and address why and when income inequality becomes a bad thing.

There comes a point in just about every imaginable scenario where too much of a even a good thing becomes a bad thing. What we have seen in the last decade and even more so in the last 5-6 years is just that. What's good for the rich and big corporations is starting to become bad for the country as a whole. The middle class is being weeded out by liberal politicians as well as what is amounting to nothing more than corporate greed.

A financially healthy middle class is needed for a strong economy. Unfortunately that is not what we have nor are we headed on a path to getting back to healthy. The middle class is what drives this country and it is disappearing for all the wrong reasons. While big business is cutting jobs or import\exporting jobs, creating an environment of job insecurity and stagnant wages, liberal politicians are squeezing more money out of the middle class with their failed policies.

When you look at the last several years, everything has risen except 2 key factors, jobs and wages. The cost of gas has risen, the cost of food has risen, the cost of health care is rising and the stock market is rising. Meanwhile jobs and wages are doing dick.

There comes a point where "what's mine is mine" becomes a bad thing. The rich and big corporations who have enjoyed record profits and a rising stock market are doing so for what is tantamount to nothing more than a fleecing of the middle class. Companies have laid off thousands of workers to increase profits in the name of "shareholder value". As the record profits come in we seem trillions being spent on non-productive things such as share buy-backs and such. Couple with the Bernanke influenced environment of low interest rates, the rich and big corps are feasting while everyone in the middle class continues to famine.

I am a capitalist and a free-market kind of guy but I can also see what is happening right in front of our eyes. Corporations have no loyalty to their employees and thus in the long run their customers. Wall St. now dictates every move of these companies with their "quarterly earnings estimates" and companies are allowing it to happen.

The best analogy I can come up with to describe the problem is one of losing weight. If you are overweight then losing weight is good and healthy. However, losing too much weight becomes unhealthy and though your initial goal was to watch the scale go down the point comes when the scale going down is now bad. Companies have got to start valuing their employees more and their CEO's a little less. The "shareholders" in which whose name all this cutting and thievery is done will benefit just the same if not more so. A healthy employment base gives companies the consumer base they ultimately need to grow.

Right now as Democrats are pushing the Immigration Reform issue so the can garner more voters, the Chamber of Commerce and big business is championing the issue in the name of cheaper labor.

The middle class is running out of money, folks. The jobs are not coming fast enough, the pay is not rising fast enough and the job security is running away too fast.

So when it comes down to it, it is not about what's fair and what isn't. It's about what is healthy for this country's economy and what isn't.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:03 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
I think we might be saying the same thing differently. The problem is we are not even in the top 10 of economic freedom rankings. This is because of a combination of failed political policies and as you state, the funneling of wealth.
Perhaps, but it didn't read that way to me.

Do I think all corporations run ethically? No, but that's not the issue. Corporations are neither moral or immoral, but amoral. They exist to earn money for the owners and investors.

Government should be there to see that they operate in a lawful manner, but then you can't extort money from people in jail. The corporate tax rate? Just the arm that does the twisting. It will never be lowered lest the pols lose their leverage. In exchange, the politicians protect the bigs with regulations and rules to discourage competition. This stifles innovation and drives prices up hurting you-know-who the most.

I guess I just see most of the blame elsewhere. Those most responsible for this inequality meme are getting out in front and controlling the narrative before they lose control.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:05 PM   #32
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The fundamental problem lies in the fact that companies are having to cut work force to increase profits as a standard practice. That means they aren't generating new business or enough new business. The problem is that is a short term and temporary fix. As more companies lay off or refrain from raising wages they ultimately cause themselves more pain in the long run. As the Bernanke Pump dries up you will see this pain rear it's ugly head more.

The stock market has managed to set new records with stagnant wages and increasing unemployment. The fundamentals prove the market is going up for artificial reasons with Bernanke carrying that flag.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:05 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
If we didn't have a middle class, they'd all be lower or upper. So, what makes a middle class so indispensable?
Are you just trying to troll me or are you really this naive?
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Pat, c'mon... any reasonable news source will be the first to tell you that the middle class is in a world of hurt right now, those good paying jobs that created the best middle class/strongest country in the world are leaving this country by the dozens every year... you're not really arguing that, right? Just because I had something negative to say about one of Reagans policies? He is the father of that term is he not?
No, as a matter of fact, he is not. That term was created by critics of his policy as a way of trivializing them and engaging the class war emotions of those who would presumably be trickled upon.

And no, I'm not arguing anything about the world of hurt in the middle class right now. I'm asking you (a) what do you mean by trickle down and (b) how do you know it hasn't worked?

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The sense I'm getting is that questioning whats going on with this "global economy" is basically considered an attack on those who consider themselves "the haves"... don't like your place in the world Mister Middle Class? Well don't be comin for mine or questioning the way shit runs around here.

It doesn't have to and shouldn't be that way, but it seems like that's the way the rich see it... I don't think most people want their money, just the same shot at "the dream" that they had in the 60's-70's-80's, but it seems like when you try to say that you get this automatic defensive reaction.

People don't want YOURS, they want a shot at THEIRS.
I submit that the reason you're getting this sense has more to do with your own gut feelings of middle class anxiety than it does with anything anyone has said in this thread.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:08 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
Perhaps, but it didn't read that way to me.

Do I think all corporations run ethically? No, but that's not the issue. Corporations are neither moral or immoral, but amoral. They exist to earn money for the owners and investors.

Government should be there to see that they operate in a lawful manner, but then you can't extort money from people in jail. The corporate tax rate? Just the arm that does the twisting. It will never be lowered lest the pols lose their leverage. In exchange, the politicians protect the bigs with regulations and rules to discourage competition. This stifles innovation and drives prices up hurting you-know-who the most.

I guess I just see most of the blame elsewhere. Those most responsible for this inequality meme are getting out in front and controlling the narrative before they lose control.
I would argue most good business men lack ethics and morals on a professional level. That's what makes them good. Having said that, as I stated in the OP, there comes the point where the water starts to boil and you have to back off.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:08 PM   #36
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Ok now you're starting to freak me out like you're H.G. Wells or something. I'm cancelling my Amazon Prime right now.
Wait 'til you see their delivery system.

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Old 01-31-2014, 09:08 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
You can keep your income equality dream. I'd rather have freedom and free economies will always have unequal incomes because people have different talents and motivations.

This is all just a big distraction of the political class. The counties around Washington are the richest in the nation as they suckle off the tax teat and they dare to preach about equality?

The real devil that needs rooted out is the unholy ties between government and the financial sectors, the revolving door of favors and appointments between the treasury department and Wall Street. The tax code that promotes and encourages the extortion of campaign donations in return for favorable regulations and tax law.

The funneling of wealth to the few is not due to capitalism, but to gradual accumulation of power of the state. Economies never trend to MORE freedom. Therefore the rise in inequality cannot be due to that.
Excellent.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:09 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Are you just trying to troll me or are you really this naive?
I'm not trolling. I may be naive. You seem to be dodging my question.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:11 PM   #39
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companies are having to cut work force to increase profits as a standard practice. That means they aren't generating new business or enough new business.
Thats bullshit. Many companies have increasing sales and profits and have reduced staffing due to efficiency and application of technology. Come on Pete you can do better than that.

Those companies who are failing to add business of course reduce staff in an attempt to maintain profits and stay in business.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:16 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, as a matter of fact, he is not. That term was created by critics of his policy as a way of trivializing them and engaging the class war emotions of those who would presumably be trickled upon.

And no, I'm not arguing anything about the world of hurt in the middle class right now. I'm asking you (a) what do you mean by trickle down and (b) how do you know it hasn't worked?



I submit that the reason you're getting this sense has more to do with your own gut feelings of middle class anxiety than it does with anything anyone has said in this thread.
**** it Pat, I thought you'd be able to talk about this without all of the defensive posturing and "what exactly do you means"... I've said atleast four times I'm not claiming to be some authority, it was basically an appeal to help me understand with facts, not defensive ass "what do you mean, define that exactly" BS, you know the gist of what I'm asking about.

I don't want rich peoples money, and I'd guess most other reasonable Americans don't either, but this subject brings out the snark and snot like no other with guys like you and HCF... but when you throw out such gems as "who said the middle class was indispensable anway?", I realize that something is *****D between Americans right now and isn't going away anytime soon.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:17 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Thats bullshit. Many companies have increasing sales and profits and have reduced staffing due to efficiency and application of technology. Come on Pete you can do better than that.

Those companies who are failing to add business of course reduce staff in an attempt to maintain profits and stay in business.
Many are working fewer workers, longer hours for stagnant pay. Look, Man, it's right in front of your face and you even complain about it daily. You have record numbers of people on food stamps, you have increasing unemployment you have record profits and a record stock market and the largest income gap in recent history. Something, well a lot of things are broken and the current large corporate structure in this country is one of those things.

What I never seem to hear from either side of the isle is how to fix things outside of pipedream, bullshit like the liberal BS we hear or the trickle down BS we hear from corporatists that guise themselves as conservatives.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:19 PM   #42
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Whew. Crazy stuff tonight.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:20 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
If we didn't have a middle class, they'd all be lower or upper. So, what makes a middle class so indispensable?
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Are you just trying to troll me or are you really this naive?
Ah, will be nice to watch one of these instead of being involved in it. Good luck, pete--you're dealing with the master.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:22 PM   #44
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Whew. Crazy stuff tonight.
Not crazy, it's the reality on the ground. Why do you think the Chamber of Commerce has Boehner and the House Repubs so ready to pass immigration reform? Because they want cheaper labor. That impacts the middle class. Companies making record profits but not hiring or increasing wages depletes the middle class. Increased cost of living by political parties passing failed policies in a stagnant economy depletes the middle class.

This is what is happening right now. And the end result is inevitable if things don't change.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:23 PM   #45
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**** it Pat, I thought you'd be able to talk about this without all of the defensive posturing and "what exactly do you means"... I've said atleast four times I'm not claiming to be some authority, it was basically an appeal to help me understand with facts, not defensive ass "what do you mean, define that exactly" BS, you know the gist of what I'm asking about.

I don't want rich peoples money, and I'd guess most other reasonable Americans don't either, but this subject brings out the snark and snot like no other with guys like you and HCF... but when you throw out such gems as "who said the middle class was indispensable anway?", I realize that something is *****D between Americans right now and isn't going away anytime soon.
You've been pateeu'd!
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