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Old 01-31-2014, 06:25 PM  
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Income Inequality and the real reason it needs to be addressed

Okay, the Left loves to rant about "fairness" when it comes to income inequality but that's a bunch of liberal BS. So let's get past the emotional arguments of fair vs. unfair and address why and when income inequality becomes a bad thing.

There comes a point in just about every imaginable scenario where too much of a even a good thing becomes a bad thing. What we have seen in the last decade and even more so in the last 5-6 years is just that. What's good for the rich and big corporations is starting to become bad for the country as a whole. The middle class is being weeded out by liberal politicians as well as what is amounting to nothing more than corporate greed.

A financially healthy middle class is needed for a strong economy. Unfortunately that is not what we have nor are we headed on a path to getting back to healthy. The middle class is what drives this country and it is disappearing for all the wrong reasons. While big business is cutting jobs or import\exporting jobs, creating an environment of job insecurity and stagnant wages, liberal politicians are squeezing more money out of the middle class with their failed policies.

When you look at the last several years, everything has risen except 2 key factors, jobs and wages. The cost of gas has risen, the cost of food has risen, the cost of health care is rising and the stock market is rising. Meanwhile jobs and wages are doing dick.

There comes a point where "what's mine is mine" becomes a bad thing. The rich and big corporations who have enjoyed record profits and a rising stock market are doing so for what is tantamount to nothing more than a fleecing of the middle class. Companies have laid off thousands of workers to increase profits in the name of "shareholder value". As the record profits come in we seem trillions being spent on non-productive things such as share buy-backs and such. Couple with the Bernanke influenced environment of low interest rates, the rich and big corps are feasting while everyone in the middle class continues to famine.

I am a capitalist and a free-market kind of guy but I can also see what is happening right in front of our eyes. Corporations have no loyalty to their employees and thus in the long run their customers. Wall St. now dictates every move of these companies with their "quarterly earnings estimates" and companies are allowing it to happen.

The best analogy I can come up with to describe the problem is one of losing weight. If you are overweight then losing weight is good and healthy. However, losing too much weight becomes unhealthy and though your initial goal was to watch the scale go down the point comes when the scale going down is now bad. Companies have got to start valuing their employees more and their CEO's a little less. The "shareholders" in which whose name all this cutting and thievery is done will benefit just the same if not more so. A healthy employment base gives companies the consumer base they ultimately need to grow.

Right now as Democrats are pushing the Immigration Reform issue so the can garner more voters, the Chamber of Commerce and big business is championing the issue in the name of cheaper labor.

The middle class is running out of money, folks. The jobs are not coming fast enough, the pay is not rising fast enough and the job security is running away too fast.

So when it comes down to it, it is not about what's fair and what isn't. It's about what is healthy for this country's economy and what isn't.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:19 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Trickle down is a term to refer to the idea that tax breaks or other economic benefits provided to businesses and upper income levels will benefit poorer members of society by improving the economy as a whole (wikipdia)

All called Reagonomics - refers to the economic policies promoted by U.S. President Ronald Reagan during the 1980s and still widely practiced. These policies are commonly associated with supply-side economics, referred to as trickle-down economics by political opponents and free market economics by political advocates.
Good and unusually fair answer. Thank god for cut and paste, huh?

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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
2) How do I know its failed?

Well, giving companies more money, doesn't created demand, therefore doesn't drive job creation. And lower taxes also reducing company reinvestment into the company, and instead promotes quick, short term earnings. But I'm sure you won't understand that.

Lets look at something conservatives claim to care about, debt.

Prior to Reagan's embrace of supply-side, every four-year presidential term but one since World War II had seen the federal debt decrease as a percentage of GDP. The only exception (Nixon-Ford) had seen a modest 0.2 percent increase. Since then... well debt.
Not so good. Your assumption that domestic demand is the engine of job creation leads to a conclusion that an approach that doesn't focus on increasing domestic demand will be bad. Shocking.

The comparison that needs to be made here to determine whether or not it has failed is what happened as a result of Reagan's supply side approach versus what would have happened if a demand side approach had been taken.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:21 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
1. Are stagnant wages amongst rising corporate profit a cause for concern? Is the increasing disparity between wages and profits a problem?

I'd like people to set aside their feelings on what the government should or shouldn't do in relation to the question, and just answer the question at its core.

I see so many threads here that immediately set aside an issue to get into a fight over what one side or the other perceives as the hidden agenda behind the issue.

Is it possible to say "X is a problem" while holding the strongest conviction that the government shouldn't address it?
Yes, they are a concern.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:29 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
HCF, I like you and generally support your takes but you are far from being "spot on" on the economic issues. In fact you are so far off I wouldn't know where to begin to straighten you out. But just to give you a start, banks are have and always will make money. The problem is they were allowed to do stupid things with said money and then we the taxpayer were forced to bail them out.

Also I don't recall anyone outside of typcal liberals advocating higher taxes on businesses.
Are you going to explain to me why a "financially healthy middle class is needed for a strong economy?" If you don't actually know and you just said it because you've heard it somewhere before, just say so.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:30 AM   #79
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There isn't a simple answer to this, if we're talking about unemployment or underemployment rather than income inequality. Government can't create jobs, other than on a very temporary basis.

If we're only talking about income inequality, then you could increase taxes on capital gains and raise the minimum wage. It won't increase employment, but those who do have a job would get a raise, including those currently making $10/hour who would demand a raise to $12-13 or whatever.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:39 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Are you going to explain to me why a "financially healthy middle class is needed for a strong economy?" If you don't actually know and you just said it because you've heard it somewhere before, just say so.
Are you going to explain why an unhealthy middle class is no big deal? This seems to be your opinion.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:49 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Are you going to explain why an unhealthy middle class is no big deal? This seems to be your opinion.
OK, I'm starting to think that you were just making empty noise and you don't really have an answer.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:02 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
OK, I'm starting to think that you were just making empty noise and you don't really have an answer.
Why does someone of your purported political stature need this explained to you?
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:03 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
There isn't a simple answer to this, if we're talking about unemployment or underemployment rather than income inequality. Government can't create jobs, other than on a very temporary basis.

If we're only talking about income inequality, then you could increase taxes on capital gains and raise the minimum wage. It won't increase employment, but those who do have a job would get a raise, including those currently making $10/hour who would demand a raise to $12-13 or whatever.
This is true. The fact is that income inequality is a symptom and not a cause.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:05 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Why does someone of your purported political stature need this explained to you?
Why can't you explain it? You probably shouldn't make statements you can't explain. It kind of makes me think you don't know what you're talking about. What's my purported political stature, anyway?
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:08 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Why can't you explain it? You probably shouldn't make statements you can't explain. It kind of makes me think you don't know what you're talking about. What's my purported political stature, anyway?
I'm trying to figure out why you of all people need it explained and why you would say a healthy middle class is not important? I have already explained it several times, for that matter.

If you want the masses on the government tip then keep pimping your Boehner politics.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:12 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
I'm trying to figure out why you of all people need it explained and why you would say a healthy middle class is not important? I have already explained it several times, for that matter.
I haven't said anything about a healthy middle class not being important. I'm just asking you to explain why they are. You've made a lot of posts since the first time I asked you, but you haven't even begun to explain it. You answer my questions with questions, you claim to be flabbergasted by my ignorance, you suggest that I should already know the answer, but you haven't explained it. Go ahead, I'll give you another chance, but to be honest, I no longer believe you have an answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
If you want the masses on the government tip then keep pimping your Boehner politics.
This wasn't an answer either. It's time to stop dodging, unless it's your only move.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:24 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I haven't said anything about a healthy middle class not being important. I'm just asking you to explain why they are. You've made a lot of posts since the first time I asked you, but you haven't even begun to explain it. You answer my questions with questions, you claim to be flabbergasted by my ignorance, you suggest that I should already know the answer, but you haven't explained it. Go ahead, I'll give you another chance, but to be honest, I no longer believe you have an answer.



This wasn't an answer either. It's time to stop dodging, unless it's your only move.
You're just being a troll
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:25 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post

If we're only talking about income inequality, then you could increase taxes on capital gains and raise the minimum wage. It won't increase employment, but those who do have a job would get a raise, including those currently making $10/hour who would demand a raise to $12-13 or whatever.
Raising the minimum would only impact a marginal few on the very bottom. It would have zero impact on any quintile but the lowest. The effect would be further limited to the jobs that don't go away as a result of the increase.

Raising capital gains would only impact those who take a Cap gain and would not be limited to the top. In fact cap gains tax increases could and would impact those wo are retired and using proceeds from IRA/401ks many who fall dead in the middle three quintiles.

In the end the real question is why are we even worried about income inequality? Rational explanation would be interesting. We have seen the sky is falling OMG OMG what are we gonna do....and we have full awareness of the need on the left to create an issue to divide people into class envy. But they don't address the question why are we trying to fix something that will aways exist even after the attempted fix?
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:29 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
You're just being a troll
You're recycling dodges now. You tried that one yesterday. I'm convinced you don't have an answer. Maybe you should back out of this thread since you don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:32 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
You're recycling dodges now. You tried that one yesterday. I'm convinced you don't have an answer. Maybe you should back out of this thread since you don't know what you're talking about.
You're free to do whatever you want....

I guarantee I know more about what I am talking about than you do when it comes to this matter. It was stated clearly in the OP why a healthy middle class is needed but you choose to play these stupid games most likely borne out of the insecurity of trying to defend trickle down economics as a good thing and only a good thing.
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