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Old 02-09-2014, 08:53 PM  
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Trader Joes attracts White People.

So much for urban renewal. I guess a crack house and a busload of whores would be a way better deal.




Black residents reject Trader Joe’s because it would attract too many white people

February 8, 2014
Trader Joes opposition
Photo credit: Andrew Theen/The Oregonian
The Trader Joe’s grocery chain has withdrawn plans to build a store in the heart of a predominantly black neighborhood after a black leadership group fought the move.

The Portland Development Commission was set to give the grocer a large discount on property that had been vacant for years, pricing it at just over $500,000, down from an appraised value of $2.9 million, according to The Oregonian.http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...ican_lead.html

The Portland African American Leadership Forum sent a scathing letter in December to city leaders, saying the plan would price residents out of the area and the group“remains opposed to any development in North/Northeast Portland that does not primarily benefit the black community.”

Trader Joe’s would increase displacement of low-income residents and “increase the desirability of the neighborhood,” for “non-oppressed populations,” PAALF wrote.

“[This decision] reflects the city’s overall track record of implementing policies that serve to uproot, displace and disempower our most vulnerable community members,” the letter said.

Trader Joe’s bowed out amid the controversy.

“We run neighborhood stores, and our approach is simple: If a neighborhood does not want a Trader Joe’s, we understand, and we won’t open the store in question,” a company spokesperson said in a statement to The Oregonian.

But not everyone is happy about the outcome.

“There are no winners today,” Adam Milne, owner of Old Town Brewing Co., told The Oregonian. “Only missed tax revenue, lost jobs, less foot traffic, an empty lot and a boulevard still struggling to support its local small businesses.”

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/02/...e-people-99333
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:18 PM   #106
chiefzilla1501 chiefzilla1501 is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
That would not be central planning. It has a definition.


That's local planning--not an aggregate economy. Depending on what they do it may be done in a socialist sense but not here. Here, it was an offer by a seller.[/quote
Bullshit. The property was valued at $3M and they sold it for $500K. You really think a private developer would sell that property at that severe a discount? Who do you think subsidizes the loss of selling that below tax value?
Oh right... maybe it's the legitimately funded groceries in the area who now have to compete with a grocer who got to play by a different set of rules. Maybe it's the property owners and businessowners in that area who pay taxes for their right to their property, yet apparently are vilified because they vocalized about what their tax money is spent on.

Dance around it all you want. That property was sold at a significant discount by a public authority. If this were any other neighborhood, guarantee the conversation would be around government asking taxpayers to subsidize a loss.



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Really? I looked it up again. You must find definitions obdurate then.

Chiefzilla operates from a collectivist mentality a little bit much. Hence his railing against the idea of property rights as if it were the same as "private property rights." My point is still valid even if you disagree with the proper definition.
There are plenty of property owners in that area who pay taxes with the promise that those taxes won't be used to destroy their vision of the neighborhood. If this was private development, that would be one thing. This is public money being used to centrally plan a neighborhood and I'm shocked people would construe it as anything otherwise.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:21 PM   #107
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee
Semantics, it's a matter of scale. You can have 'central planning' in a household.
I'd hate to live in that household. Let's say Dad or Hubby is the head person. He decides what is to be produced, who will produce it, when and how it's to be produced. So much for being a partnership.

Central planning usually refers to this in economics:
http://answers.ask.com/society/philo...lanned_economy
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:22 PM   #108
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
Oh right... I'm shocked people would construe it as anything otherwise.
I'm not surprised that you're shocked. I'll repeat...
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:23 PM   #109
Baby Lee Baby Lee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Bullshit

They say its worth $2.5 million


The only offer they get is 500 grand.

You call the difference a subsidy.

**** you.

Period.
There actually is a reason that appraisals are taken and made part of the public record.

Sale or no sale, that appraised $2.9M is an asset that the city can count in it's coffers in securing credit and maintaining liquidity.

Would you be as sanguine if the brother of a Commissioner got this good of a deal?
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:26 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
There actually is a reason that appraisals are taken and made part of the public record.

Would you be as sanguine if the brother of a Commissioner got this good of a deal?
I know you didn't ask me but if the property was vacant for years why would it be an issue?

There's got to be something more to this. Maybe the appraisal was wrong. Remember how appraisers were over appraising during the real-estate boom.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:35 PM   #111
Baby Lee Baby Lee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I know you didn't ask me but if the property was vacant for years why would it be an issue?

There's got to be something more to this. Maybe the appraisal was wrong. Remember how appraisers were over appraising during the real-estate boom.
I augmented my post in a manner that happens to address that in part.

In part, I already did.

Going below appraised value raises the spectre of gladhanding and sweetheart deals.

We had the obverse of this problem in St. Louis, when the partially publicly funded History Museum bought land, without appraisal, for SIGNIFICANTLY more than the owner, former mayor and current History Museum board member Freeman Bosley paid for it.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...91c16a1ba.html
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:35 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I know you didn't ask me but if the property was vacant for years why would it be an issue?

There's got to be something more to this. Maybe the appraisal was wrong. Remember how appraisers were over appraising during the real-estate boom.
You don't think the "something more to this" has to do with the idea that a central planning development authority is basically taking a loss on a property in the hope that surrounding areas will thrive? And that that maybe they were wiling to take that loss (and potentially a major loss) because they knew taxpayers would subsidize it?
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:36 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Oh shit

Derail.
Yeah it is. I put whoosh up to try and cut it short. But Zilla is intent on continuing.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:57 PM   #114
chiefzilla1501 chiefzilla1501 is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Yeah it is. I put whoosh up to try and cut it short. But Zilla is intent on continuing.
How is this a derail?

Your whole argument is based on this ridiculous idea that the government sold $3M property for $500K because it was market value. And now you're hanging this flimsy rationale that appraisers were comically off on their assessment. If the government sold this below market value, then public taxpayers absorb the loss. Period.

And those public taxpayers include the neighborhood private property owners, business owners, and even renters who actually invest in that neighborhood. If these taxpayers are paying taxes to have stake in that neighborhood, then why are we vilifying for protesting against public money being used to subsidize a loss on a business they don't want there in the first place?
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:13 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
How is this a derail?

Your whole argument is based on this ridiculous idea that the government sold $3M property for $500K because it was market value. And now you're hanging this flimsy rationale that appraisers were comically off on their assessment. If the government sold this below market value, then public taxpayers absorb the loss. Period.

And those public taxpayers include the neighborhood private property owners, business owners, and even renters who actually invest in that neighborhood. If these taxpayers are paying taxes to have stake in that neighborhood, then why are we vilifying for protesting against public money being used to subsidize a loss on a business they don't want there in the first place?
Something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, no matter what the appraisers say. The appraisers of course are usually from the government and property taxes are based on the appraisal of the land, so naturally it is in the governments interest to overvalue all property.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:18 PM   #116
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Something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, no matter what the appraisers say. The appraisers of course are usually from the government and property taxes are based on the appraisal of the land, so naturally it is in the governments interest to overvalue all property.
Excellent point! The market always has the last say.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:19 PM   #117
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Something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, no matter what the appraisers say. The appraisers of course are usually from the government and property taxes are based on the appraisal of the land, so naturally it is in the governments interest to overvalue all property.
Would a private developer sell that same property for that kind of a major, major loss?
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:21 PM   #118
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Key words...property "had been vacant for years."

If it were so frickin valuable, it would have been scooped up by someone before at that price.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:23 PM   #119
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Would a private developer sell that same property for that kind of a major, major loss?
If they couldn't build and were paying property taxes and that was the only offer? Possibly, at some point you cut your losses and stop throwing good money after bad.

Again the appraiser can say whatever they want, something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:28 PM   #120
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If they couldn't build and were paying property taxes and that was the only offer? Possibly, at some point you cut your losses and stop throwing good money after bad.

Again the appraiser can say whatever they want, something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.
Or perhaps that because this is a public entity backed by taxpayer dollars, this development authority in this case decided to sell property at a loss under the promise that it would energize the neighborhood.
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