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Old 04-04-2014, 04:25 PM  
RNR RNR is offline
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Free will

Out of curiosity I posted a reply in the Ft Hood thread. I was just fishing and sure enough I had a small bite for a big question. "you're not going to bring god into this are you???" Religion makes intelligent people say the silliest things IMO I simply responded it must be that free will thing we keep getting punished for because that is the catch all for evil allowing people to give their gods a pass for ignoring life's tragedies. As Sam Harris put it " either your god doesn't have the ability to intervene or he chooses not to or he is imaginary. Choose wisely" Explaining god is impotent, evil or doesn't exist.

20,000+ children die everyday in tragic ways. Horrible random events lead innocent people dying everyday. However in religious discussions free will is handed out as a supposedly reasonable explanation. When you apply basic logic it falls completely apart. Strangely when you mention this outside of the "how dare you question my faith conversation" suddenly you are out of bounds. Harris makes some interesting points on this subject in the attached video~


http://youtu.be/pCofmZlC72g

Last edited by RNR; 04-04-2014 at 06:48 PM..
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:33 PM   #2
listopencil listopencil is offline
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Sounds like something I've seen referred to as the Epicurean paradox.
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:36 PM   #3
Rausch Rausch is offline
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Events happen.

People decide if they're good or bad.
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:40 PM   #4
vailpass vailpass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNR View Post
Out of curiosity I posted a reply in the Ft Hood thread. I was just fishing and sure enough I had a small bite for a big question. "you're not going to bring god into this are you???" Religion makes intelligent people say the silliest things IMO I simply responded it must be that free will thing we keep getting punished for because that is the catch all for evil allowing people to give their gods a pass for ignoring life's tragedies. As Sam Harris put it " either your god doesn't have the ability to intervene or he chooses not to or he is imaginary. Chose wisely" Explaining god is impotent, evil or doesn't exist.

20,000+ children die everyday in tragic ways. Horrible random events lead innocent people dying everyday. However in religious discussions free will is handed out as a supposedly reasonable explanation. When you apply basic logic it falls completely apart. Strangely when you mention this outside of the "how dare you question my faith conversation" suddenly you are out of bounds. Harris makes some interesting points on this subject in the attached video~


http://youtu.be/pCofmZlC72g
We studied some great arguments from some very learned people in my undergrad philosophy courses on this very subject. If I still had those brain cells I would present them here but alas...
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:44 PM   #5
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:59 PM   #6
Prison Bitch Prison Bitch is offline
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Anyone who spent time reading the original post is nuts.
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Old 04-04-2014, 06:03 PM   #7
vailpass vailpass is offline
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Anyone who spent time reading the original post is nuts.
RNR is a consistent, respectable poster. The concept of free will is one that has been argued through the ages. He broaches one of the known arguments against here and invites discourse. Hardly "nuts".
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Old 04-04-2014, 06:23 PM   #8
GloryDayz GloryDayz is offline
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I too hope thye don't bring religion into it, neither side deserves the other.
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Old 04-04-2014, 06:43 PM   #9
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
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Originally Posted by Rausch View Post
Events happen.

People decide if they're good or bad.
Kids are born with Cystic Fibrosis, hemophilia, and other horrible and fatal genetic disorders. In no way could those events be construed as good.

So either a deity does not exist, it is malevolent, or it is simply piss poor at making things.
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Old 04-04-2014, 06:45 PM   #10
RNR RNR is offline
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Anyone who spent time reading the original post is nuts.
You are nothing more than a disingenuous coward too afraid to own your stances. When asked a simple question you pull the covers over your head. I am willing to enter the arena of discussion offering my stances up to open debate. Run little Phelps the queers are out to get you~
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Old 04-04-2014, 06:55 PM   #11
Cochise Cochise is offline
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This was a primary issue in the Reformation. The exhaustive work on it would be Martin Luther's "On The Bondage Of The Will". It was a rebuttal to Erasmus' critique of Luther in "On Free Will".

Erasmus argued that all humans possess "free will" to choose God or not, or rather we could say "totally free will". Luther argued that man is totally corrupted by sin, and while possessing a kind of free will, due to man's fallen nature his will can never choose God and thus he is helpless to work out his own salvation unless God first changes his nature. In essence, man before the fall had the ability to sin, but after the fall man lost the ability not to sin.

So the chain of grace would be that man, who is totally depraved, may be irresistibly called by God who resurrects his dead spirit, which then has a new nature. But all throughout man has a kind of free will, but not total freedom of the will.
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Old 04-04-2014, 07:02 PM   #12
RNR RNR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise View Post
This was a primary issue in the Reformation. The exhaustive work on it would be Martin Luther's "On The Bondage Of The Will". It was a rebuttal to Erasmus' critique of Luther in "On Free Will".

Erasmus argued that all humans possess "free will" to choose God or not, or rather we could say "totally free will". Luther argued that man is totally corrupted by sin, and while possessing a kind of free will, due to man's fallen nature his will can never choose God and thus he is helpless to work out his own salvation unless God first changes his nature. In essence, man before the fall had the ability to sin, but after the fall man lost the ability not to sin.

So the chain of grace would be that man, who is totally depraved, may be irresistibly called by God who resurrects his dead spirit, which then has a new nature. But all throughout man has a kind of free will, but not total freedom of the will.
So how do we explain sociopaths, manic depressants or random deaths involving no human intervention? How do these fit into the free will definition?
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Old 04-04-2014, 07:04 PM   #13
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
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So how do we explain sociopaths, manic depressants or random deaths involving no human intervention? How do these fit into the free will definition?
Or fatal genetic conditions like Type I diabetes and acromegaly?
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Old 04-04-2014, 07:07 PM   #14
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Old 04-04-2014, 07:12 PM   #15
RNR RNR is offline
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Or fatal genetic conditions like Type I diabetes and acromegaly?
The free will catch all argument simply doesn't hold water on any level in my opinion. That said there are some extremely bright people here who hold to that belief system. That is the reason I ask this question. I wanted to remove the discussion from the clutter of most religious threads. Defining this speaks in the very foundation of the discussion~
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