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Old 02-19-2014, 09:14 PM  
listopencil listopencil is offline
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Anyone Following The Protests In The Ukraine?

I've been seeing some impressive pics of protests in Kiev.


Protests against new anti-democratic laws in Ukraine are increasing in intensity, with four citizens reported dead. As you can see in these extraordinary images by Ilya Varlamov, the demonstrators are using rockets made with fireworks. They look like scenes from some science-fiction movie about urban warfare.

The latest reports talk about at least four people killed and hundreds injured by the police. After the massive protests against the government's rejection against the European Union in favor of an alliance with the former Russian oppressors, Kiev officials announced new repressive laws limiting the people's right to protest. These urban battles are the people's reaction to those laws.

Ukraine was a former Soviet Republic, created after a civil war between pro-communist and the Ukrainian People's Republic armies at the beginning of the 20th century, right after the fall of the Russian Empire. The communists won, and the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was established. In theory, it was an independent state, but in fact—like all republics in the USSR and satellite countries—it was under a tight control by the Kremlin.

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/spectacula...rai-1507432049

Pics to follow...
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Old 03-17-2014, 03:39 PM   #1501
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
(CNN) -- The United States and European Union announced sanctions including asset freezes and travel bans on officials from Russia and Ukraine after Crimea applied to join Russia on Monday following a controversial weekend referendum.

"We'll continue to make clear to Russia that further provocations will achieve nothing except to further isolate Russia and diminish its place in the world," President Barack Obama said. "The international community will continue to stand together to oppose any violations of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, and continued Russia military intervention in Ukraine will only deepen Russia's diplomatic isolation and exact a greater toll on the Russia economy."

The sanctions came after Crimea's Moscow-backed leaders declared an overwhelming 96.7% vote in favor of leaving Ukraine and being annexed by Russia in a vote that Western powers said was illegal. Turnout was 83%.

The result did not come as a surprise. But what happens next is far from certain. Diplomatically, Sunday's referendum has put the United States and Russia on the kind of collision course not seen since the Cold War. Economically, it's unclear how much such a coupling will cost Russia. And politically, it's divided Crimeans, some of whom think it will bring better pay and some who see this as a Kremlin land grab.

In Brussels, Belgium, European Union international policy chief Catherine Ashton announced sanctions against 21 people "responsible for actions which undermine or threaten the territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence of Ukraine." She called the weekend vote "illegal" and "a clear breach of the Ukrainian Constitution," and she urged Russia not to follow up by annexing the territory.

"We want to underline very clearly that there is still time to avoid a negative spiral and to reverse current developments," she said.

Ashton said the names of those sanctioned will be disclosed later Monday. But German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said those targeted included eight top Crimean officials and 10 people from Russia, including members of parliament, and three military personnel.

The union's 28 foreign ministers agreed on sanctions earlier Monday, Lithuanian Foreign Affairs Minister Linas Linkevicius wrote in a message on Twitter. More measures would follow in a few days, when EU leaders meet for a summit in Brussels, he said.

Washington said its sanctions targeted Russian officials and lawmakers, as well as Crimea-based separatist leaders, with financial sanctions for undermining "democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine." Obama's order freezes any assets in the United States and bans travel for the 11 people named. Among those sanctioned were ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and aides to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Earlier, lawmakers in Crimea approved a resolution that declared the Black Sea peninsula an independent, sovereign state. They then filed an appeal to join the Russian Federation.

Moscow strongly backed Sunday's referendum; the majority of the population is ethnic Russian. And Russian lawmakers have said they will welcome Crimea with open arms.

Ukraine recalled its ambassador to Russia for discussions, according to a statement on the Foreign Affairs Ministry website.
I bet Putin doesn't concern himself much with threats from someone that checks his own ass out in the mirror to see if he looks good in a pair of jeans.
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Old 03-17-2014, 03:40 PM   #1502
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
This looks (to me) to be very similar to what Austin Chief was calling for.
It is but it's slightly watered down for my taste... but you're right, it's exactly the kind of thing I wanted. The kind of thing that KCNative told us all was CRAZY and impossible. What a maroon.
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Old 03-17-2014, 03:42 PM   #1503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I bet Putin doesn't concern himself much with threats from someone that checks his own ass out in the mirror to see if he looks good in a pair of jeans.
He wouldn't care who was in office, he's not leaving Crimea and he's not tolerating NATO encroachment on his country. There are national security issues and they're non-negotiable and "sanctions" are worthless as a response.
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Old 03-17-2014, 03:57 PM   #1504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
It is but it's slightly watered down for my taste... but you're right, it's exactly the kind of thing I wanted. The kind of thing that KCNative told us all was CRAZY and impossible. What a maroon.
Heh, I knew you would try to claim victory on this.

These seizures and freezes are directed at elected/appointed officials of Russia and the Ukraine.

It's not even close to seizing/freezing the assets of the oligarchs like you wanted.

Hilarious that you would assert that this is a victory for you.
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Old 03-17-2014, 03:59 PM   #1505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
This looks (to me) to be very similar to what Austin Chief was calling for.
Only if you ignore the fact that he was calling for it to be done against people who weren't government officials and hadn't done anything wrong by the laws where they are located.

What he was calling for and what has been done (precedence was there to do this against officials of countries), is completely different.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:00 PM   #1506
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The distinction is irrelevant, because the main point was that anything of this nature would prove to be ineffective anyway in changing Russia's course.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:02 PM   #1507
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OK after thinking about it for a minute, I may upgrade the D+ to a solid C simply because the Administration (and the EU) stuck with targeted sanctions and not any general sanctions that only hurt the Russian people.

Solid first step, now you give them a few weeks and assuming no further movement by Russia in that time (either direction) you up the ante by increasing the number of people targeted and change the scope of the asset freezes to full on seizures for the initial 21... with freezes for the expanded group. The asset seizures on the initial 21 won't make a lick of real difference but will serve warning to the expanded group that inaction will result in the same fate for them. A move like that would definitely give the Administration an A in my book. I'm not holding my breath though.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:12 PM   #1508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC native View Post
Heh, I knew you would try to claim victory on this.

These seizures and freezes are directed at elected/appointed officials of Russia and the Ukraine.

It's not even close to seizing/freezing the assets of the oligarchs like you wanted.

Hilarious that you would assert that this is a victory for you.
Your and idiot and clueless about Russia. A number of the oligarchs in question are "officials" and "aides" to Putin (or Chair of such and such committee). Yes I want it expanded and that is easily done. As a matter of fact...

Quote:
, a new executive order of the US president has been adopted. This order forms the basis of sanctions against the aforementioned persons. In addition, the document allows introducing punitive measures against persons and organizations serving the interests of Russia’s military industry, as well as providing material support to people included in the black list.
This EO is worded such that any oligarch who supports Putin is fair game.

The original list btw had 120 names but these 21 were what could be agreed upon to start with. A strategy I agree with. You have to set an example before you threaten an expanded list.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:18 PM   #1509
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Originally Posted by KC native View Post
Only if you ignore the fact that he was calling for it to be done against people who weren't government officials and hadn't done anything wrong by the laws where they are located.

What he was calling for and what has been done (precedence was there to do this against officials of countries), is completely different.
Keep digging that hole of ignorance deeper son.

This is very clearly a step towards what I proposed and the EO is worded such to include damn near anyone they want. So now we have a legal basis that you claimed was impossible and a first step toward the end result that I wanted. I never claimed it would actually get that far and I still have my doubts that the EU has the stomach to go further... and hell, it may get resolved before it gets to that point anyway.

BUT it's pretty damn clear that you were dead wrong. The legal basis is in place now it's just a question of will.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:23 PM   #1510
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Now what we need is sanctions against the economic interests of the meddling US/EU I-Wanna-Spread-Democracy-Around-The-World Progs. ( Neo-Libs, Neo-Cons, and Neo-Libertarians --the least of whom should be supporting any sanctions whatsoever!).

Let the frickin' country get partitioned on their own. Stop meddling.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:26 PM   #1511
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I did address it. The line was fine and it was appropriate and you're still a moron.
Come on. The line was absurd then, and it's even more obviously absurd with our current hindsight.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:28 PM   #1512
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This looks (to me) to be very similar to what Austin Chief was calling for.
It's too narrow, IMO. And it took too long. These people have had a couple of weeks now to withdraw their funds from western banks in anticipation of this sanction. It's a start, but unfortunately, it appears to be all Obama is willing to do until Russia takes it's next step by either annexing Crimea or invading eastern Ukraine.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:29 PM   #1513
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
This is fine if it is step 1 of many steps to follow if Russia doesn't play ball. If this is the END GAME then Obama and the EU get a D+ grade on the handling of this. These sanctions are a bit too weak and more importantly they aren't targeting enough of the people who prop up Putin's regime. Hopefully this is just to show that we will do SOMETHING and the plan is to escalate the sanctions the longer Russia continues down the path they are on.

It's almost time to start the public shaming of the UK for pandering to the oligarchs.
+1
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:32 PM   #1514
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Come on. The line was absurd then, and it's even more obviously absurd with our current hindsight.
Jay Cosmo has decided to double-down on something that not even Jay Carney himself would address. That says it all, does it not?
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:35 PM   #1515
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Jay Cosmo has decided to double-down on something that not even Jay Carney himself would address. That says it all, does it not?
It's not one of his shining moments, that's for sure.
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