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Old 02-19-2014, 08:14 PM  
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Anyone Following The Protests In The Ukraine?

I've been seeing some impressive pics of protests in Kiev.


Protests against new anti-democratic laws in Ukraine are increasing in intensity, with four citizens reported dead. As you can see in these extraordinary images by Ilya Varlamov, the demonstrators are using rockets made with fireworks. They look like scenes from some science-fiction movie about urban warfare.

The latest reports talk about at least four people killed and hundreds injured by the police. After the massive protests against the government's rejection against the European Union in favor of an alliance with the former Russian oppressors, Kiev officials announced new repressive laws limiting the people's right to protest. These urban battles are the people's reaction to those laws.

Ukraine was a former Soviet Republic, created after a civil war between pro-communist and the Ukrainian People's Republic armies at the beginning of the 20th century, right after the fall of the Russian Empire. The communists won, and the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was established. In theory, it was an independent state, but in fact—like all republics in the USSR and satellite countries—it was under a tight control by the Kremlin.

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/spectacula...rai-1507432049

Pics to follow...
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:51 PM   #1531
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It is but it's slightly watered down for my taste... but you're right, it's exactly the kind of thing I wanted. The kind of thing that KCNative told us all was CRAZY and impossible. What a maroon.
Wouldn't that be a moran? I was with you. I think it's too little too late. Crimea is gone and within 3-4 years so is Ukraine. Got to pick up one of those hot, young, blond Ukrainian women before it's too late 😆
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:55 PM   #1532
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
You're acting like he said that Russia was irrelevant or something.
It's precisely what he was saying.
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:00 PM   #1533
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:04 PM   #1534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Wouldn't that be a moran? I was with you. I think it's too little too late. Crimea is gone and within 3-4 years so is Ukraine. Got to pick up one of those hot, young, blond Ukrainian women before it's too late 😆
True. The silver lining is that under Russian rule their economy will be even more feudal and the women's desire to escape should increase!
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:06 PM   #1535
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
You're acting like he said that Russia was irrelevant or something.
No, I'm acting like he ridiculed Romney's concern over Russia as a geopolitical challenge.
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:10 PM   #1536
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
True. The silver lining is that under Russian rule their economy will be even more feudal and the women's desire to escape should increase!
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:46 PM   #1537
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Nice try at changing the goalposts shithead. My initial statement was about what I WANTED to happen... I even stated that the UK wouldn't have the stomach for it. You argued that my idea was outlandish and infeasible based on legality... the EO proves that wrong. AND you are wrong about the oligarchs since I'd bet some(maybe 2 or 3) on the list of 21 are among the 80-100 people considered Putin's oligarch buddies. Just because they aren't celebrity oligarchs doesn't change the outcome.
You have the worst case of confirmation bias of anyone I've come across (aside from BEP and TJ).

Just because Obama signed an EO that says we may freeze/seize the assets doesn't make it legal. There would be immediate challenges to any freezes/siezes. And that's just from the US perspective. The UK has already indicated they won't be going along with your freeze/seizure idea (and that's where the vast majority of the assets are). So how exactly is freezing/seizing their assets actually possible under that scenario?

I guess your cartoonish world view ignores the whole legal process unless it fits with whatever idea you are proposing and so you can declare hollow victories in bar and online debates.
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:51 PM   #1538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC native View Post
You have the worst case of confirmation bias of anyone I've come across (aside from BEP and TJ).

Just because Obama signed an EO that says we may freeze/seize the assets doesn't make it legal. There would be immediate challenges to any freezes/siezes. And that's just from the US perspective. The UK has already indicated they won't be going along with your freeze/seizure idea (and that's where the vast majority of the assets are). So how exactly is freezing/seizing their assets actually possible under that scenario?

I guess your cartoonish world view ignores the whole legal process unless it fits with whatever idea you are proposing and so you can declare hollow victories in bar and online debates.
The EO is plenty to make this legal enough to happen (yes you could see failed legal challenges but you won't) but if this escalates Congress will quickly pass a law reinforcing the EO.(They wouldn't want to be left out of any victory Obama might have here) Key members of Congress have already said as much.

It's amazing that even NOW after we have started the process you cling to your bullshit just to try to save face or whatever. You were wrong, it's painfully obvious to everyone else. Sorry.

Are you saying that the 21 people (at least 3 of whom qualify as the type of oligarchs I want targeted) on the list will NOT see assets frozen or their travel restricted? Even after the US EO and EU council regulation?

Last edited by AustinChief; 03-17-2014 at 05:57 PM.. Reason: added last sentence
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:57 PM   #1539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC native View Post
You have the worst case of confirmation bias of anyone I've come across (aside from BEP and TJ).

Just because Obama signed an EO that says we may freeze/seize the assets doesn't make it legal. There would be immediate challenges to any freezes/siezes. And that's just from the US perspective. The UK has already indicated they won't be going along with your freeze/seizure idea (and that's where the vast majority of the assets are). So how exactly is freezing/seizing their assets actually possible under that scenario?

I guess your cartoonish world view ignores the whole legal process unless it fits with whatever idea you are proposing and so you can declare hollow victories in bar and online debates.
As I recall the legality of the EO could only hinge upon whether Russia's actions constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the United States:

(a) Any authority granted to the President by section 1702 of this title may be exercised to deal with any unusual and extraordinary threat, which has its source in whole or substantial part outside the United States, to the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the United States, if the President declares a national emergency with respect to such threat.

(b) The authorities granted to the President by section 1702 of this title may only be exercised to deal with an unusual and extraordinary threat with respect to which a national emergency has been declared for purposes of this chapter and may not be exercised for any other purpose. Any exercise of such authorities to deal with any new threat shall be based on a new declaration of national emergency which must be with respect to such threat.
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:59 PM   #1540
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I think it is slightly more than that. I think Obama isn't just following the EU or right alongside but is actually pushing them on this. The question will be how hard he is willing to push next.
That's interesting. I didn't get that impression but there isn't anything in particular for me to base that belief on.
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:59 PM   #1541
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
As I recall the legality of the EO could only hinge upon whether Russia's actions constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the United States:

(a) Any authority granted to the President by section 1702 of this title may be exercised to deal with any unusual and extraordinary threat, which has its source in whole or substantial part outside the United States, to the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the United States, if the President declares a national emergency with respect to such threat.

(b) The authorities granted to the President by section 1702 of this title may only be exercised to deal with an unusual and extraordinary threat with respect to which a national emergency has been declared for purposes of this chapter and may not be exercised for any other purpose. Any exercise of such authorities to deal with any new threat shall be based on a new declaration of national emergency which must be with respect to such threat.
Yet again KCNative is talking solely out of his ass in a feeble attempt to cover up how wrong he was to begin with.
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:01 PM   #1542
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
That's interesting. I didn't get that impression but there isn't anything in particular for me to base that belief on.
Just my impression from timing of certain statements and other factors but I could be wrong here.
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:08 PM   #1543
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
The EO is plenty to make this legal enough to happen (yes you could see failed legal challenges but you won't) but if this escalates Congress will quickly pass a law reinforcing the EO.(They wouldn't want to be left out of any victory Obama might have here) Key members of Congress have already said as much.

It's amazing that even NOW after we have started the process you cling to your bullshit just to try to save face or whatever. You were wrong, it's painfully obvious to everyone else. Sorry.

Are you saying that the 21 people (at least 3 of whom qualify as the type of oligarchs I want targeted) on the list will NOT see assets frozen or their travel restricted? Even after the US EO and EU council regulation?
now you're trying to expand it to restricted travel.

We were discussing asset forfeiture and seizure (and originally whether it would have any impact on Putin but you've conveniently forgot that now).

I never said that we wouldn't start the process. I said that asset freezing/seizing wouldn't happen and pointed out the legal difficulties associated with it. It hasn't happened and it won't happen.

Also, I'm glad your bar debates have now made you an legal expert (the comment about failed legal challenges). It's nice to know that sleeping in holiday inn's and shouting down drunks in bars is all it takes to become an expert in that arena.
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:10 PM   #1544
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
As I recall the legality of the EO could only hinge upon whether Russia's actions constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the United States:

(a) Any authority granted to the President by section 1702 of this title may be exercised to deal with any unusual and extraordinary threat, which has its source in whole or substantial part outside the United States, to the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the United States, if the President declares a national emergency with respect to such threat.

(b) The authorities granted to the President by section 1702 of this title may only be exercised to deal with an unusual and extraordinary threat with respect to which a national emergency has been declared for purposes of this chapter and may not be exercised for any other purpose. Any exercise of such authorities to deal with any new threat shall be based on a new declaration of national emergency which must be with respect to such threat.
If they are Russian officials and they have assets here, then they are fair game. If they aren't Russian officials, then we won't be able to get the assets.
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:14 PM   #1545
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I think we at least need to save this Ukrainian football team's supporters

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