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Old 02-19-2014, 09:14 PM  
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Anyone Following The Protests In The Ukraine?

I've been seeing some impressive pics of protests in Kiev.


Protests against new anti-democratic laws in Ukraine are increasing in intensity, with four citizens reported dead. As you can see in these extraordinary images by Ilya Varlamov, the demonstrators are using rockets made with fireworks. They look like scenes from some science-fiction movie about urban warfare.

The latest reports talk about at least four people killed and hundreds injured by the police. After the massive protests against the government's rejection against the European Union in favor of an alliance with the former Russian oppressors, Kiev officials announced new repressive laws limiting the people's right to protest. These urban battles are the people's reaction to those laws.

Ukraine was a former Soviet Republic, created after a civil war between pro-communist and the Ukrainian People's Republic armies at the beginning of the 20th century, right after the fall of the Russian Empire. The communists won, and the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was established. In theory, it was an independent state, but in fact—like all republics in the USSR and satellite countries—it was under a tight control by the Kremlin.

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/spectacula...rai-1507432049

Pics to follow...
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:26 PM   #811
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"It is not appropriate to invade a country, and at the end of a barrel of a gun dictate what you are trying to achieve. That is not 21st-century, G-8, major nation behavior." - John Kerry on Russia, 2014



"If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's already existing order, then he will have invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act." - John Kerry on Iraq, 2002
But he voted for it before he was against it or some such. Nice finds!
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:27 PM   #812
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And can you see the rather large distinction between the two?
No, hit me.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:34 PM   #813
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No, hit me.
It's right there in the two quotes. Let's see if you can figure it out.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:43 PM   #814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Depends on how the bold is done. Otherwise, it's not maintaining neutrality. Stating ideas one favors is fine but more than that is questionable. There is no national security interest for us there. Or any other interest.

That's not what was being done in that instance when looked at within the context of other actions though.
It also depends on the situation. And we don't have to be neutral in all things. There will be situations where our involvement will hinge upon an outcome that is positive for us. There will also be situations where we can become involved in situations "for the greater good" for lack of a better term. Now, that doesn't mean it's OK to send in the troops to get what we want all of the time. It means that it is OK for the US to act globally. A thought occurred to me some time ago that a fund could be set aside for federal relief in our own country. Name a figure, put it in the budget. Use that money for disaster relief; hurricanes, floods, fires and so on. At the end of the fiscal year any leftover funds may be allocated in the next fiscal year to foreign aid by vote of the Senate pending approval by the House and requiring the signature of the POTUS.
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:24 PM   #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
It's right there in the two quotes. Let's see if you can figure it out.
Don't be coy.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:36 PM   #816
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
It also depends on the situation. And we don't have to be neutral in all things. There will be situations where our involvement will hinge upon an outcome that is positive for us.
Too general and vague.


Quote:
There will also be situations where we can become involved in situations "for the greater good" for lack of a better term.
Libertarians don't take such positions. Govt and the greater good in one sentence is an oxymoron. You're calling for intervention and meddling even if it stops short of troops. People in such places can still resent this interference because it is trying to influence an outcome and still takes a side. What is considered "the greater good" is subjective and a lot of harm has been done under that claim.

Just allow people to trade with each other.

Quote:
Now, that doesn't mean it's OK to send in the troops to get what we want all of the time. It means that it is OK for the US to act globally. A thought occurred to me some time ago that a fund could be set aside for federal relief in our own country. Name a figure, put it in the budget. Use that money for disaster relief; hurricanes, floods, fires and so on. At the end of the fiscal year any leftover funds may be allocated in the next fiscal year to foreign aid by vote of the Senate pending approval by the House and requiring the signature of the POTUS.
Again, this is not limited govt nor libertarian. Acting like Switzerland is more the ideal our Framers sought. (Certainly not some in the Federalist faction such as Hamilton or the Whigs later.)

http://www.lp.org/issues/foreign-policy
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:58 PM   #817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
What is considered "the greater good" is subjective and a lot of harm has been done under that claim.

Worse, it is all-encompassing. Every single action can be justified under that logic.
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:08 PM   #818
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Worse, it is all-encompassing. Every single action can be justified under that logic.
I've seen people commit crimes, actually felonies, using that rationale.
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:13 PM   #819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Too general and vague.
No, it's not. This isn't a black-and-white world.


Quote:
Libertarians don't take such positions. Govt and the greater good in one sentence is an oxymoron. You're calling for intervention and meddling even if it stops short of troops. People in such places can still resent this interference because it is trying to influence an outcome and still takes a side. What is considered "the greater good" is subjective and a lot of harm has been done under that claim.
Of course it's subjective. It has to be. Once again, not a black-and-white world. In many instances well timed and well placed diplomacy avoids military conflict. Regardless of labels it doesn't really work to just stick your head in the sand and pretend that nothing exists beyond our borders.

Quote:
Just allow people to trade with each other.
At no point did I suggest otherwise.



Quote:
Again, this is not limited govt nor libertarian. Acting like Switzerland is more the ideal our Framers sought. (Certainly not some in the Federalist faction such as Hamilton or the Whigs later.)

http://www.lp.org/issues/foreign-policy
Again, not a black-and-white world. For example, Switzerland deployed troops into Afghanistan for Operation Enduring Freedom. They finally left in 2008.
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:16 PM   #820
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Worse, it is all-encompassing. Every single action can be justified under that logic.
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I've seen people commit crimes, actually felonies, using that rationale.
If the US existed in a vacuum, and the government had no oversight whatsoever, then you'd both have a point. It doesn't. You don't.
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:17 PM   #821
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No, it's not. This isn't a black-and-white world.

Doesn't matter. Never said it was either. In fact, I posted in one of these threads that two-valued logic won't do. The other side is doing the same thing...but you do not protest.


Quote:
Of course it's subjective. It has to be. Once again, not a black-and-white world. In many instances well timed and well placed diplomacy avoids military conflict. Regardless of labels it doesn't really work to just stick your head in the sand and pretend that nothing exists beyond our borders.
I don't stick my head in the sand and pretend nothing exists beyond our borders--or I wouldn't be in this thread. Your point is inapplicable. I also mentioned trade--just not entangling alliances.

And since I did support the Cold War, and have posted I was not absolutely against all interventions, I don't use it in a black and white manner.

This is NOT a good one to be entangled in. There is no vital interests of the US except for globalists wanting to change the world to suit their own ends.

Quote:
At no point did I suggest otherwise.
Wasn't imply that was providing the best solution.


Quote:
Again, not a black-and-white world. For example, Switzerland deployed troops into Afghanistan for Operation Enduring Freedom. They finally left in 2008.
It's still not a libertarian position. I can read their material even if I am not one.
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:19 PM   #822
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Doesn't matter. Never said it was either.

I don't stick my head in the sand and pretend nothing exists beyond our borders--or I wouldn't be in this thread. I also mentioned trade--just not entangling alliances.

And since I did support the Cold War, I don't use it in a black and white manner.


Wasn't imply that was providing the best solution.



It's still not a libertarian position. I can read their material even if I am not one.
If that's all really true then why fall back on the most extreme position possible?
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:22 PM   #823
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If the US existed in a vacuum, and the government had no oversight whatsoever, then you'd both have a point. It doesn't. You don't.
You're not a libertarian either if you're calling for govt oversight. I realize you support that but it's statist when the problem is due to too much govt oversight. I see this particularly based on these posts in this thread. You're defending a high level of statism at this point.
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:25 PM   #824
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If that's all really true then why fall back on the most extreme position possible?
I stated my reasons several times for why. It does not serve any vital US security interests, or any other interests except for the globalists involved. Plus a whole host more inside the thread about the players involved and why they can't be trusted either.

BTW libertarianism is considered an extreme position too. One reason I am not one. So what are you talking about?

Don't give me this " I'm practical" because libertarianism is NOT practical. Although, what is extreme to one, is not to another...but libertarianism is still considered extreme by most.
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:28 PM   #825
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If the US existed in a vacuum, and the government had no oversight whatsoever, then you'd both have a point. It doesn't. You don't.
I think we found out during Iraq, and now with the NSA story, that the US Government does in fact operate without oversight.
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