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Old 02-19-2014, 09:14 PM  
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Anyone Following The Protests In The Ukraine?

I've been seeing some impressive pics of protests in Kiev.


Protests against new anti-democratic laws in Ukraine are increasing in intensity, with four citizens reported dead. As you can see in these extraordinary images by Ilya Varlamov, the demonstrators are using rockets made with fireworks. They look like scenes from some science-fiction movie about urban warfare.

The latest reports talk about at least four people killed and hundreds injured by the police. After the massive protests against the government's rejection against the European Union in favor of an alliance with the former Russian oppressors, Kiev officials announced new repressive laws limiting the people's right to protest. These urban battles are the people's reaction to those laws.

Ukraine was a former Soviet Republic, created after a civil war between pro-communist and the Ukrainian People's Republic armies at the beginning of the 20th century, right after the fall of the Russian Empire. The communists won, and the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was established. In theory, it was an independent state, but in fact—like all republics in the USSR and satellite countries—it was under a tight control by the Kremlin.

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/spectacula...rai-1507432049

Pics to follow...
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:00 AM   #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pants View Post
Yeah, you're right, my cousins are lying to me. The Ukrainian press and blogs are lying to me. The Russian media is the one we should all be trusting, those guys never lie.
It's fascinating to watch our local head-in-the-sand isolationists being undressed like this.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:03 AM   #992
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, I didn't miss the point. Your point is irrelevant to my position.

Putin is a despot. He's not a despot because Russia invaded Crimea, he's a despot because he's an autocratic ruler who's willing to oppress his people.
Life has become immeasurably better for Russians under his leadership and their per capita income has doubled since he took office in 2000 and they have almost zero debt. By contrast, American incomes have actually gone south since 2000 and now we're in hock to the world. I'd argue that Putin's been far better for his people than Bush & Obama have been for our own. The numbers back it up too.


If your only measure of happiness is the ability to have gay pride marches, then of course you'll think the USA has gotten better the past 15 years.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:09 AM   #993
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It's the reality of the way the world works. It's no different than the way our anti-war movement was used by international communists to do their bidding or the way the Russian propaganda influences your impeccable sources except that in this case it's being done by the good guys.

I'm a neoconservative in the same way Reagan was a neoconservative. You should read his autobiography to learn a little bit about him.


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Old 03-06-2014, 10:11 AM   #994
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26463731
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:14 AM   #995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pants View Post
Putin's unmarked troops take over Crimea (that would be WITHIN a sovereign country's borders), give power to a pro-Russian gangster who got all of 3% of the popular vote in the last election he ran in and this is the conclusion BEP reaches.

I just cannot believe how someone can call Europe tyrannical while defending a country invading another country on completely asinine premises. The same country that probably has the 2nd best propaganda machine outside of North Korea. A country where media is 100% controlled by the government, which in turn is controlled by a single man. This is the country that imprisons or kills activists, lawyers and journalists who openly criticize or question their government. Hell, an extremely well respected Professor tenured in the most prestigious learning institution in all of Russia just got fired yesterday for expressing his opinion in an essay which compared Putin's recent actions to Hitler's Anschluss in 1938.

This is a country run by a man who sends fully armed troops with troop transports and light armor into a sovereign country, claims it's for protection of that sovereign country and Russian interests therein. He later changes his mind and says that no Russian troops ever entered that sovereign country and that it's simply the country's own militia gathering to protect the region from neo-Nazis, fascists and ultra-nationalists. When he gets called out on how well equipped they're, he states that one can get all that gear at any military surplus store (). In the meantime, this self-defense militia surrounds every local military base and outpost and demands the surrender of the troops inside.

This of course all makes sense to the brainwashed citizens of Russia along with our own resident posters, BEP and Prison Bitch.

Sending thousands of Russian citizens with Russian flags into eastern parts if Ukraine to make it looks like Ukrainians have been dying for Russia to come and save the day, inciting unrest and violence and trying to provoke other citizens sounds completely normal and fine.

Claiming that there's violence, looting and anarchy in the country and that 150,000 displaced refuges have already made their way across the border as a result when neither thing is even remotely true sounds completely normal and fine.

It's a good thing we have Russia out there trying to protect the world against those big bad European and American tyrants.

What an epic beat down. Well done.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:15 AM   #996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post


If your only measure of happiness is the ability to have gay pride marches, then of course you'll think the USA has gotten better the past 15 years.
/radar-style-post]

But it was funny! So what if Putin is a despot. We're not harmed here by it.
We are, however, harmed by the wanna-be-despots running our govt. We're lucky our natural law based form of govt puts some restraint on them. Despite, that those restraints are being chipped away so they can be become full-fledged despots. Obama is working on that, but the right will support him on messing inside the Ukraine, while crying about it being done here if anyone tried.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:18 AM   #997
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
He's trying to contort his mind to finding a "constitutional" rationale for what they did. Which of course doesn't exist in fact, and even if it did would've been nullified since it was coercive. That said I respect the fact he's at least trying to follow this, since about 1% of Americans actually will.
Nope, no contortions. The parliament impeached the President. The PM should have taken over at that point but he had already resigned. There was an acting PM at the time, but he was dismissed with the cabinet according to law. The parliament installed an interim President and mandated a new election according to the articles of their constitution. From my point of view you are contorting your mind to find a rationale for what the Crimean leader did, which doesn't exist, and even if it did would be nullified because it's illegal.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:22 AM   #998
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
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Quit posting idiotic shit and you won't be so easy to laugh at.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:26 AM   #999
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Don't know why listo ignores those factors.
Because the parliament did impeach. I don't know why both of you are ignoring the Ukrainian constitution.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:28 AM   #1000
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Nope, no contortions. The parliament impeached the President. The PM should have taken over at that point but he had already resigned. There was an acting PM at the time, but he was dismissed with the cabinet according to law. The parliament installed an interim President and mandated a new election according to the articles of their constitution. From my point of view you are contorting your mind to find a rationale for what the Crimean leader did, which doesn't exist, and even if it did would be nullified because it's illegal.
Does impeachment mean instant removal there? I am reading that their impeachment clause is so complicated it can't even be implemented. Nevertheless, this was followed by an EU brokered agreement signed by Yanukovich and the opposition; followed by Yanukovich calling for early presidential elections and the return to the constitution of 2004--which limits presidential power and calling for a national unity govt. ( as if the latter is always possible.)
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:31 AM   #1001
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Because the parliament did impeach. I don't know why both of you are ignoring the Ukrainian constitution.
I'm not. I'm asking what comes after that since it doesn't mean removal here.
It did produce a change in direction that the opposition desired....so what's the big deal?

How come you say nothing of what the US has been doing inside that country?
Are you giving those guys a free pass while calling out one side?
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:37 AM   #1002
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O.M.G. This one is rich coming from Rubio.


Rubio: Russia is a ‘government of liars
As if we haven't been doing any of that. This is what all govts do.

Anyhoo, this is Europe's problem--not OURS!


http://www.humanevents.com/2014/03/0...ment-of-liars/
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:39 AM   #1003
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Life has become immeasurably better for Russians under his leadership and their per capita income has doubled since he took office in 2000 and they have almost zero debt. By contrast, American incomes have actually gone south since 2000 and now we're in hock to the world. I'd argue that Putin's been far better for his people than Bush & Obama have been for our own. The numbers back it up too.


If your only measure of happiness is the ability to have gay pride marches, then of course you'll think the USA has gotten better the past 15 years.
Your Putin love is weird, but I guess the anti-gay thing makes you pretty compatible bed fellows (no homo, of course).

Per capita income isn't a good proxy for freedom. Good luck convincing anyone that Putin isn't an oppressive autocrat.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:52 AM   #1004
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Does impeachment mean instant removal there? I am reading that their impeachment clause is so complicated it can't even be implemented. Nevertheless, this was followed by an EU brokered agreement signed by Yanukovich and the opposition; followed by Yanukovich calling for early presidential elections and the return to the constitution of 2004--which limits presidential power and calling for a national unity govt. ( as if the latter is always possible.)
As I recall they have a duty to hold elections as quickly as possible, which they are doing. I quoted the impeachment clause in this thread, and posted a link to it. The only complication I see is that the PM had resigned and there was an acting PM in place. That isn't really a problem because the PM and the cabinet are accountable to the Verkhovna Rada:

Article 114

The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine is composed of the Prime Minister of Ukraine, the First Vice Prime Minister, Vice Prime Ministers, and Ministers.
The Prime Minister of Ukraine is appointed by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine upon the submission by the President of Ukraine.
The name of a candidate for the office of the Prime Minister of Ukraine is put forward by the President of Ukraine upon the proposal by the parliamentary coalition formed in the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine as provided for in Article 83 of the Constitution of Ukraine or by a parliamentary faction whose People's Deputies of Ukraine make up a majority of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
The Minister of Defense of Ukraine and the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine are appointed by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine upon the submission by the President of Ukraine; the other members of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine are appointed by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine upon the submission by the Prime Minister of Ukraine.
The Prime Minister of Ukraine manages the work of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine and directs it for the implementation of the Program of Activity of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:57 AM   #1005
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
/radar-style-post]

But it was funny! So what if Putin is a despot. We're not harmed here by it.
We are, however, harmed by the wanna-be-despots running our govt. We're lucky our natural law based form of govt puts some restraint on them. Despite, that those restraints are being chipped away so they can be become full-fledged despots. Obama is working on that, but the right will support him on messing inside the Ukraine, while crying about it being done here if anyone tried.
I didn't call Putin a despot out of the blue as if it made a difference here. Prison Bitch suggested that Putin wasn't a despot and I corrected him. I think you'd agree with me that he is even if you don't agree with me on this Ukrainian thing.
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