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Old 02-26-2014, 07:07 PM  
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Down goes Arizonas Anti-gay Bill

Governor vetoes it.
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:07 PM   #91
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Ok, Mitt.
I'm not going to be distracted by flattery.
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:05 PM   #92
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If we are to have protected statuses at all (and that ship has sailed) than I think we need a logical and CONSISTENT basis for it.
The problem you are encountering is that something that may be a choice should not be the basis of a protected class. Your race is not your choice. Sexuality, despite what the liberals want you to think, is indeed sometimes a choice and some do choose to be gay.

All of this is superficial though - what right does government have in forcing you to do business with someone? As someone else stated, should black people running a business be forced to provided goods & services that support the KKK? Of course not - but you don't get to pick & choose which ideals are forced and which aren't - that's called tyranny.

If someone doesn't want to bake you a gay 'wedding' cake here's an idea - go somewhere else or do it yourself. You have no 'right' to force someone to bend to your will.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:44 PM   #93
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I'm not sure why you need more than a historical reason. I get that you think choice matters, but I don't think that makes any sense.
WUT? First let's address "historical reasons." Please explain to me why that makes one lick of sense as a justification? The idea that "we have done it this way for a long time" should stand as an excuse for continued behavior is frankly ludicrous. I'm surprised you can't see that.

I'll address why chosen versus inherent traits matter as soon as you address my dry cleaner example. Why is it legal to refuse service to one group with offensive beliefs (the Klan) but not another group (in this case Jews, we'll assume the dry cleaner is a Muslim and finds Jews offensive)? The idea that we slap the label of "religion" on a belief system and it gets a free pass is asinine.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:44 PM   #94
Trolly McTrollson Trolly McTrollson is offline
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Ay, yo, free exercise of religion isn't some pass that lets you override other people's rights to equal protection and public accommodations. You don't get to say "God told me I can't serve black people at my restaurant" and have that be legal. It doesn't work that way.

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"Claimed religious beliefs" aren't enough, btw, and it in no way allows people with legitimate religious beliefs to discriminate against "anyone".
Yeah, it's going to be fun arguing in a court of law which religious practices are "legitimate." You know what's clearly not legitimate? This idea that practicing Christians are required by religion to not serve gay customers. Since when has that been a thing? Did anyone ever hear about that rule before this Arizona thing? It's never been a part of Christian tradition --and I don't hear anyone refusing service to adulterers or blasphemers or atheists.

If you don't want to have gays at your business because they make you feel all yicky and confused inside, then that's one thing. Don't pretend Christianity is forcing you to be an ***hole toward the gays.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:48 PM   #95
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When I say I believe it is both, I believe out of the population I had it was about a 80/20 mix meaning 80% of the cases homosexuality was learned and 20% were born homosexual.
I don't agree with quite a bit of your post but frankly I'll admit a certain degree of ignorance of the subject matter. I will say that there certainly some people who its fairly obvious the behavior is more nurture than nature. Of course I also don't think it's a black or white issue but a matter of degrees... especially when it comes to sexual orientation for women. BUT for the sake of this discussion let's keep it simple and just limit the issue to those who are "born gay."
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:51 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Xanathol View Post
The problem you are encountering is that something that may be a choice should not be the basis of a protected class. Your race is not your choice. Sexuality, despite what the liberals want you to think, is indeed sometimes a choice and some do choose to be gay.
As I addressed in another post. Let's keep it simple and go with the people who are "born gay." We can start a seperate thread if we want to address the particulars of that argument.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:58 PM   #97
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WUT? First let's address "historical reasons." Please explain to me why that makes one lick of sense as a justification? The idea that "we have done it this way for a long time" should stand as an excuse for continued behavior is frankly ludicrous. I'm surprised you can't see that.

I'll address why chosen versus inherent traits matter as soon as you address my dry cleaner example. Why is it legal to refuse service to one group with offensive beliefs (the Klan) but not another group (in this case Jews, we'll assume the dry cleaner is a Muslim and finds Jews offensive)? The idea that we slap the label of "religion" on a belief system and it gets a free pass is asinine.
I really don't care about this. I still don't understand your insistence that being born with a group-defining characteristic is essential, but if you don't want to explain it to me, that's fine.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:59 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
Ay, yo, free exercise of religion isn't some pass that lets you override other people's rights to equal protection and public accommodations.
Where is this stated in the Constitution?


Equal protection refers to equal protection of the laws -- not some private individual being forced to create your message for you. That denies free speech to the person being asked to create a message they find wrong.

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Yeah, it's going to be fun arguing in a court of law which religious practices are "legitimate." You know what's clearly not legitimate? This idea that practicing Christians are required by religion to not serve gay customers.
That's just your personal opinion that's "clearly not legitimate." As to arguing religion in a court of law, the courts stay out of it as it's entanglement in religion--specifically prohibited under the Constitution. They are not allowed to determine what religion is legit or not. Generally, they don't either. They are very leery of such an intrusion.

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Since when has that been a thing? Did anyone ever hear about that rule before this Arizona thing? It's never been a part of Christian tradition --and I don't hear anyone refusing service to adulterers or blasphemers or atheists.
Because you don't understand what this law addresses. It addresses things like being made to photograph a gay wedding. It does not address providing other services to the public that the same vendor supplies. Say portraiture photos. Or baking a cake. But making a gay wedding cake is another matter.

Enforcing such speech is not exactly Constitutional either.

What you're actually saying is that a gay couple has a right to sue a photographer who does not want to create gay marriage photography, even if that same photographer is willing to supply them with any other photography. This is actually happening. And it's not okay in a free country.


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If you don't want to have gays at your business because they make you feel all yicky and confused inside, then that's one thing. Don't pretend Christianity is forcing you to be an ***hole toward the gays.
Again, you have no understanding on what type of behavior this was to prohibit. You also have no understanding of conflicting rights, because you ignore the rights on one side.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:01 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
Ay, yo, free exercise of religion isn't some pass that lets you override other people's rights to equal protection and public accommodations. You don't get to say "God told me I can't serve black people at my restaurant" and have that be legal. It doesn't work that way.



Yeah, it's going to be fun arguing in a court of law which religious practices are "legitimate." You know what's clearly not legitimate? This idea that practicing Christians are required by religion to not serve gay customers. Since when has that been a thing? Did anyone ever hear about that rule before this Arizona thing? It's never been a part of Christian tradition --and I don't hear anyone refusing service to adulterers or blasphemers or atheists.

If you don't want to have gays at your business because they make you feel all yicky and confused inside, then that's one thing. Don't pretend Christianity is forcing you to be an ***hole toward the gays.
Nice rant, but you've been severely misinformed about this issue.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:12 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I really don't care about this. I still don't understand your insistence that being born with a group-defining characteristic is essential, but if you don't want to explain it to me, that's fine.
And I don't understand your insistence that just because a group labels themselves a "religion" they get special govt protections from discrimination. It's logically inconsistent to not offer those protections to other groups or (my preference) remove those protections from religions. Still waiting to hear why the Klan doesn't get protections....

The reason choice matters is because most humans agree that it's fair to judge others based on choices they make not on inherent characteristics outside their control. The concept is such a fundamental one that its hard to imagine anyone not seeing it as self evident.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:16 PM   #101
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And I don't understand your insistence that just because a group labels themselves a "religion" they get special govt protections from discrimination. It's logically inconsistent to not offer those protections to other groups or (my preference) remove those protections from religions. Still waiting to hear why the Klan doesn't get protections....

The reason choice matters is because most humans agree that it's fair to judge others based on choices they make not on inherent characteristics outside their control. The concept is such a fundamental one that its hard to imagine anyone not seeing it as self evident.
I'm not insisting on it, I was just explaining the reason for it. I'm troubled by the whole suspect class concept, particularly as it's applied to private businesses.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:23 PM   #102
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I'm not insisting on it, I was just explaining the reason for it. I'm troubled by the whole suspect class concept, particularly as it's applied to private businesses.
Gotcha. That makes much more sense. I can see why the idea of "protected classes" has a ton of failings but since that ship has sailed I would like to see us tighten things up with something close to a set of criteria that can be applied across the board instead of some bullshit "list" like we have now.

I just can't see any valid justification for Religion making the cut.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:52 PM   #103
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Gotcha. That makes much more sense. I can see why the idea of "protected classes" has a ton of failings but since that ship has sailed I would like to see us tighten things up with something close to a set of criteria that can be applied across the board instead of some bullshit "list" like we have now.

I just can't see any valid justification for Religion making the cut.
OK. My preferred approach, given the reality that the ship has sailed on suspect classes, would be to stop adding to the list.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:53 PM   #104
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I just can't see any valid justification for Religion making the cut.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:56 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]
Try to keep up. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about here.
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