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Old 02-27-2014, 10:23 AM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:22 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
Ok, but then when brainiac says "My position is that I simply don't know. I'm willing to be convinced one way or the other if I see compelling evidence either way, but I'm not willing to blindly accept either argument" you are telling me that I should not suggest reading something that he will either accept or refute? He said he is willing to be convinced, but how can he be convinced about Biblical beliefs if he does not read the Book that is the foundation of them?

I understand what you are saying, but if someone is willing to dig deeper to fulfill their own thirst for knowledge, you would have them not do it? I am very against stem cell research, but I was challenged by someone on here to really research stem cell, and I found that not all avenues are as bad as I had been led to believe. If I had not researched something I appalled initially, I would not have the knowledge I do now, and I corrected my flawed knowledge.
My knowledge of the Bible is neither flawed nor incomplete. I've read it, and I find it to be very unconvincing.

I also find your argument that the ONLY way to heaven is to accept the gift of Jesus Christ to be extremely unconvincing. What about the BILLIONS of people on this planet who will never even have an opportunity to do that because they are already indoctrinated into their own religion? Many of them may have never even heard of Jesus Christ. According to your statement, those BILLIONS of people are doomed to suffer eternal torture, no matter how good and kind they are.

Too bad for them, right?

It's no different from holding a gun to somebody's head and telling them if they don't BELIEVE that 2+2=5, you are going to pull the trigger. You may get a lot of people to say "Yes, 2+2 is indeed equal to 5", but deep down inside they don't really believe it. They say it under duress.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:22 PM   #137
El Jefe El Jefe is offline
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[quote=Detoxing;10458929]I have kicked religion out the window, yes. Squarely in the nuts. However, i do not deny or confirm the existence of God. In order for me to acknowledge the existence of God I'll need more faith, and that faith absolutely will not come from the Bible or anything any man says.[/QUOTE]


Then you cannot obtain faith IMO. Faith for all intensive purposes pertaining to our discussion, is believing in God or biblically inspired doctrine through spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:24 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
Then you cannot obtain faith IMO. Faith for all intensive purposes pertaining to our discussion, is believing in God or biblically inspired doctrine through spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
"Spiritual apprehension." Do you equate that with fear?
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:24 PM   #139
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As you pointed out, there is a difference between an Atheist (capital "A") and an atheist (lowercase "a"). The Atheist label applies to people who I would call militant, in your face atheists who insist that they KNOW there is no God, and they are hell-bent to remove all references to the Christian God, even when those references are completely harmless. I have no problem with seeing pictures of Mary, Joseph and Jesus in public places at Christmas. That's completely different in my mind from putting disclaimers in Biology textbooks that claim that evolution is an unproven theory. The latter is potentially harmful.

That's why I prefer the term agnostic. I'm not part of any movement, I respect the beliefs of others, and I acknowledge the fact that God could exist. If I saw evidence of God's existence that I found compelling, I would believe. I just don't base my life on a belief that is unproven.

As Stephen King said in Thinner: If you don't believe it because you don't see it, you're a skeptic. If you see it but you refuse to believe it, you're an asshole.
You are describing the difference between an atheist and an Anti-theist (like Hitchens). They are not the same.

I say I'm atheist (for example) because I don't believe in the supernatural. If one does not actively worship a deity, that person is an atheist. I don't believe in ghosts, goblins, deities, or magic. Everything either is or will one day be explainable by natural laws. The religious element has always put a stigma on the word 'atheist' so people are quick to attach all kinds of negative meanings to justify an existing bias.

Being an agnostic is not something you can ACTIVELY be. IT's a passive position. All atheists are basically agnostic in principle, but without evidence they take the atheistic approach (devoid of things like reverence or active belief in a deity) to life. It's sad how many atheists refuse to call themselves atheists simply because so many people have convinced them it's a BAD thing to be.

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Old 02-28-2014, 12:25 PM   #140
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atheist is not a proper noun, you don't need to capitalize it.

Trying to differentiate an "Atheist" from an "atheist" I think just adds confusion as to what an atheist really is

That word has such a stigma to it I think people are afraid to use it unless they are describing someone who burns bibles or something
Believers are atheist as they dismiss other gods besides their own~
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:25 PM   #141
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Let me offer some advice to you for the sake of keeping peace and understanding each other.

When talking to someone with a belief that Brainiac, myself and others have, it's best not to ask them to read the bible.

There is a key difference between Faith and Fact. I'm not sure what's happening in Brainiac's head, so I'll use myself as an example.

I can respect your Faith. The best argument anyone can have for me is Faith. "Detoxing, i don't have definitive proof that god exists, but i have Faith and that's all i need".

Bam. Argument over as far as im concerned. I can respect your faith and understand where it comes from.

However, when someone cites the Bible or other man made writings as definitive proof that God exists, that's when we run into problems.

You're asking me to switch from Faith to Fact. You're asking me to analyze and use my common sense. When i do that, the Bible & religion looks like it has more holes in it than a fat bitch in fishnets.

I can accept faith and NOT dismiss the idea of God as long as i am coming from a supernatural place that accepts the idea that i do not know the unknown. But when you ask me to find my faith by reading the bible, you're asking me to use my analytic, common sense side.

And when i do that....i just want to kick the entire idea of God and Religion out the window. The analytic side of my brain can't imagine why anyone would believe in the bible.

Again, in order for me to accept the idea that God exists, i have to NOT analyze the bible and put MORE power in Faith.

So please, don't ask anyone who's agnostic to turn to the bible or any teachings for proof. You're begging them to go full blown atheist on your ass.
Faith, by one of it's definition, is the belief in something that cannot be proven...some people see that as a weakness or frivolity.

I have a friend who's an atheist who's daughter is currently a train wreck. I asked him if he had "faith" that she would turn her life around...he said "Yes, I do." I asked him if he considered his faith in her turning her life around, despite the evidence otherwise, as weakness or stupidity...and he responded "No, I don't". I think he got my point.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:27 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
My knowledge of the Bible is neither flawed nor incomplete. I've read it, and I find it to be very unconvincing.

I also find your argument that the ONLY way to heaven is to accept the gift of Jesus Christ to be extremely unconvincing. What about the BILLIONS of people on this planet who will never even have an opportunity to do that because they are already indoctrinated into their own religion? Many of them may have never even heard of Jesus Christ. According to your statement, those BILLIONS of people are doomed to suffer eternal torture, no matter how good and kind they are.
It's no different from holding a gun to somebody's head and telling them if they don't BELIEVE that 2+2=5, you are going to pull the trigger. You may get a lot of people to say "Yes, 2+2 is indeed equal to 5", but deep down inside they don't really believe it. They say it under duress.
If you do not believe the Bible at all, our discussion can go no further. How I would refute your statement would be by showing the following verses out of Romans Chapter 1

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:28 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by fan4ever View Post
Faith, by one of it's definition, is the belief in something that cannot be proven...some people see that as a weakness or frivolity.

I have a friend who's an atheist who's daughter is currently a train wreck. I asked him if he had "faith" that she would turn her life around...he said "Yes, I do." I asked him if he considered his faith in her turning her life around, despite the evidence otherwise, as weakness or stupidity...and he responded "No, I don't". I think he got my point.
He would be wiser to have "hope"
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:28 PM   #144
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Some people NEED religion in their life and it makes them happier for having it.

Good for them. Plenty of my family members/friends need that sort of bond with a creator and/or a church. Lots of people don't need it in their life to enjoy their time on Earth. There may be a God/Creator. I can't claim to know if there is or isn't. At this point in my life, I don't find the need to look for those sort of answers. Doesn't benefit me in any way. That could change.

The notion that hsit brought up earlier that young folks don't want to be held accountable for their actions(sins) or whatever you want to call it is laughable.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:28 PM   #145
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"Spiritual apprehension." Do you equate that with fear?
A fear of God is essential to a believers life.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:28 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by fan4ever View Post
Faith, by one of it's definition, is the belief in something that cannot be proven...some people see that as a weakness or frivolity.

I have a friend who's an atheist who's daughter is currently a train wreck. I asked him if he had "faith" that she would turn her life around...he said "Yes, I do." I asked him if he considered his faith in her turning her life around, despite the evidence otherwise, as weakness or stupidity...and he responded "No, I don't". I think he got my point.
I don't see the analogy. If his daughter does turn it around, his faith in his daughter would be proven, no?
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:29 PM   #147
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Fair enough however freewill doesn't cover things that happen to innocent people through catastrophe. It falls short on the countless children who live and die in agonizing pain everyday. It is a get out of blame clause that is used by people who in turn heap praise for the smallest good event on god. In my opinion anyway. A long way of saying I completely disagree with you~

You're (obviously) free to disagree. But I suspect that your view of free will is incomplete, based on your characterization in this post.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:30 PM   #148
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A fear of God is essential to a believers life.

Disagree.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:30 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
A fear of God is essential to a believers life.
Thanks, just checking. That's always been one of the stumbling blocks for me. It has just always seemed to me as a man-created selling point.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:32 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by El Jefe View Post
If you do not believe the Bible at all, our discussion can go no further. How I would refute your statement would be by showing the following verses out of Romans Chapter 1

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
And of course this leads to the several bibles available which all vary. Following it back to the original Greek writings which have their own variations. For you to dismiss a non-believers knowledge of the bible is unwarranted arrogance~
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