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Old 02-27-2014, 10:23 AM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is online now
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:51 AM   #106
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I do not see any compelling evidence that those ancient writing are anything but myth. That applies to the big three monotheisms along with the countless splinter beliefs also. There might be a prime mover and I have not seen any compelling evidence that proves there is not. Sam Harris sums this up rather well when speaking to catastrophes. It also works regarding all tragedies:

“Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely.
The only sense to make of tragedies like this is that terrible things can happen to perfectly innocent people. This understanding inspires compassion.
Religious faith, on the other hand, erodes compassion. Thoughts like, “this might be all part of God’s plan,” or “there are no accidents in life,” or “everyone on some level gets what he or she deserves” – these ideas are not only stupid, they are extraordinarily callous. They are nothing more than a childish refusal to connect with the suffering of other human beings. It is time to grow up and let our hearts break at moments like this”
I get your point, and believe me, I absolutely understand it and I've heard my share of that crap. As some know, I have a severely handicapped child and I've heard all those stereotypical responses as to why "this happened" and they are often quite silly. What I do try to do is appreciate these people likely have no other words of comfort to try and provide, so they make points like this that are so easily argued against. Somehow I don't think it was God's plan to make my son have to live his life not being able to enjoy it to a more full extent.

Where God does come into the equation is in the strength we as a family draw from him. I won't go into examples, but many in this forum know what I'm referring to, and yes, it's supernatural...call me a rube if you like, but it's "evidence" to me...and I was agnostic for a majority of my life. I can hear it now, I've used God as my crutch...sorry, but a crutch can't make you whole, and what he's done for me is nothing short of that. Religious rant over.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:12 AM   #107
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I get your point, and believe me, I absolutely understand it and I've heard my share of that crap. As some know, I have a severely handicapped child and I've heard all those stereotypical responses as to why "this happened" and they are often quite silly. What I do try to do is appreciate these people likely have no other words of comfort to try and provide, so they make points like this that are so easily argued against. Somehow I don't think it was God's plan to make my son have to live his life not being able to enjoy it to a more full extent.

Where God does come into the equation is in the strength we as a family draw from him. I won't go into examples, but many in this forum know what I'm referring to, and yes, it's supernatural...call me a rube if you like, but it's "evidence" to me...and I was agnostic for a majority of my life. I can hear it now, I've used God as my crutch...sorry, but a crutch can't make you whole, and what he's done for me is nothing short of that. Religious rant over.
It is true that hurling insults is uncalled for. That said for years those who did not fall somewhere in line with the belief crowd were dismissed, frowned upon and accused of being under the spell of the devil. This by a group of people who can agree on very little. I contend that there are many more nonbelievers than are reflected in polls. Many find it easier to play along than to take an unpopular stance. Those of us who disagree speak more freely and this is very offensive to the belief crowd who has always flashed their faith card and received respect and the last word in the conversation. Those days are over and they simply will have to get used to sharing the floor in this discussion. A child in pain is something that sickens anyone who has a heart. I wish the best to you and your child. I am glad you find solace in your beliefs. In the arena of discussion why someone believes something I find unbelievable is not a factor~
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:14 AM   #108
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I think the Pope is helping out a lot. Maybe young people are too liberal, but it's understandable that they realize you can disapprove of a behavior without coming from a place of hate. The church is realizing that message. The Republican party could stand to do the same.
What makes you think the Catholic Church didn't already understand this before Francis?
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:31 AM   #109
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It is true that hurling insults is uncalled for. That said for years those who did not fall somewhere in line with the belief crowd were dismissed, frowned upon and accused of being under the spell of the devil. This by a group of people who can agree on very little. I contend that there are many more nonbelievers than are reflected in polls. Many find it easier to play along than to take an unpopular stance. Those of us who disagree speak more freely and this is very offensive to the belief crowd who has always flashed their faith card and received respect and the last word in the conversation. Those days are over and they simply will have to get used to sharing the floor in this discussion. A child in pain is something that sickens anyone who has a heart. I wish the best to you and your child. I am glad you find solace in your beliefs. In the arena of discussion why someone believes something I find unbelievable is not a factor~
Belief can hard, mostly by observing man's behavior. Scripture says God loves everyone and sometimes I look around and say "Really?"
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:42 AM   #110
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I would say there are a lot of believers who do not attend churches. They instead give their tithes to the poor instead of it going to mantain church mansions.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:50 AM   #111
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What makes you think the Catholic Church didn't already understand this before Francis?
Because it was poorly communicated by our last few Popes, at least in the way the media covered them. The love them some Francis now though, we'll see how long it lasts.

As a Catholic, I think he's great. Love JPII as well. Benedict was more of a theologian, so was not much of a "people's pope".
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:52 AM   #112
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I have always maintained that anyone who insists that THEY KNOW THERE IS NO GOD is using the same degree of faith and arrogance as anyone who insists that if you don't believe exactly what they believe, you are going to hell.

My position is that I simply don't know. I'm willing to be convinced one way or the other if I see compelling evidence either way, but I'm not willing to blindly accept either argument.

I believe that is the definition of agnosticism. Some people claim that agnostics are simply closet atheists. That's not true.

I certainly hope that my consciousness and memories will continue on after my physical body fails. However, I wouldn't want to live in a heaven where billions of good and decent people have been excluded simply because they didn't accept without evidence the assertions of ANY religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhism, or whatever. It may turn out that one single religious denomination is 100% correct down to 10 decimal places. It may be the Fundamental Baptists, or it may be the Southern Baptists, or it may be the Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, or other Protestant religions. It may turn out to be the Muslims. It may turn out that either the Ancient Greeks or Romans are the ones who had it all figured out, and that Zeus or Odin is really God Almighty. Hell, as unlikely as it sounds, it could even turn out that the Westboro Baptist Church are the ones who have it exactly right, and that God really DOES hate all gay people.

But I'll be surprised if any of those turns out to be the case. I think it's equally likely that the Universe was created by an omnipotent being who, even if he doesn't call himself God, is close enough as far as we are concerned. He may take a personal interest in each of the billions of humans who have ever lived or will ever live, or he may have just set things in motion billions of years ago and then moved on to his next project. I think it's also possible that God as an individual doesn't exist at all.

The fact is that I don't know. And I don't think anybody really does. All I can do is live my life according to what I think are moral values and let the chips fall where they may.
Preach on brotha. I have the same stance on the subject.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:04 AM   #113
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I have always maintained that anyone who insists that THEY KNOW THERE IS NO GOD is using the same degree of faith and arrogance as anyone who insists that if you don't believe exactly what they believe, you are going to hell.

My position is that I simply don't know. I'm willing to be convinced one way or the other if I see compelling evidence either way, but I'm not willing to blindly accept either argument.

I believe that is the definition of agnosticism. Some people claim that agnostics are simply closet atheists. That's not true.

I certainly hope that my consciousness and memories will continue on after my physical body fails. However, I wouldn't want to live in a heaven where billions of good and decent people have been excluded simply because they didn't accept without evidence the assertions of ANY religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhism, or whatever. It may turn out that one single religious denomination is 100% correct down to 10 decimal places. It may be the Fundamental Baptists, or it may be the Southern Baptists, or it may be the Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, or other Protestant religions. It may turn out to be the Muslims. It may turn out that either the Ancient Greeks or Romans are the ones who had it all figured out, and that Zeus or Odin is really God Almighty. Hell, as unlikely as it sounds, it could even turn out that the Westboro Baptist Church are the ones who have it exactly right, and that God really DOES hate all gay people.

But I'll be surprised if any of those turns out to be the case. I think it's equally likely that the Universe was created by an omnipotent being who, even if he doesn't call himself God, is close enough as far as we are concerned. He may take a personal interest in each of the billions of humans who have ever lived or will ever live, or he may have just set things in motion billions of years ago and then moved on to his next project. I think it's also possible that God as an individual doesn't exist at all.

The fact is that I don't know. And I don't think anybody really does. All I can do is live my life according to what I think are moral values and let the chips fall where they may.
This is an excellent summation and extremely similar to my own views.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:05 AM   #114
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“Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely.
These aren't the only three options.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:09 AM   #115
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Same here. Our church has grown each year for several years and it's mostly young people we're gaining.

Dave is disappoint.
Dave is a bitter old man. He is a pot stirrer, nothing more, nothing less. I have had great conversations with people on this site who have strong opposing views to my own, but were educated enough to have an insightful conversation about them. Dave is a putrid tard, he is antagonistic to the fullest meaning.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:12 AM   #116
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I would say there are a lot of believers who do not attend churches. They instead give their tithes to the poor instead of it going to mantain church mansions.
Exactly what we've been doing the past year. Our church isn't a mansion, but has been spending time and money on elaborate sets for the next "series" of sermons for a couple of years now. I'm like "Shouldn't this time and money be spent in the community?" so we're looking for a new church and sending our tithing to a non-profit food shelter. Churches are often misguided.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:20 AM   #117
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These aren't the only three options.
By all means proceed~
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:21 AM   #118
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I have always maintained that anyone who insists that THEY KNOW THERE IS NO GOD is using the same degree of faith and arrogance as anyone who insists that if you don't believe exactly what they believe, you are going to hell.

My position is that I simply don't know. I'm willing to be convinced one way or the other if I see compelling evidence either way, but I'm not willing to blindly accept either argument.

I believe that is the definition of agnosticism. Some people claim that agnostics are simply closet atheists. That's not true.

I certainly hope that my consciousness and memories will continue on after my physical body fails. However, I wouldn't want to live in a heaven where billions of good and decent people have been excluded simply because they didn't accept without evidence the assertions of ANY religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhism, or whatever. It may turn out that one single religious denomination is 100% correct down to 10 decimal places. It may be the Fundamental Baptists, or it may be the Southern Baptists, or it may be the Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, or other Protestant religions. It may turn out to be the Muslims. It may turn out that either the Ancient Greeks or Romans are the ones who had it all figured out, and that Zeus or Odin is really God Almighty. Hell, as unlikely as it sounds, it could even turn out that the Westboro Baptist Church are the ones who have it exactly right, and that God really DOES hate all gay people.

But I'll be surprised if any of those turns out to be the case. I think it's equally likely that the Universe was created by an omnipotent being who, even if he doesn't call himself God, is close enough as far as we are concerned. He may take a personal interest in each of the billions of humans who have ever lived or will ever live, or he may have just set things in motion billions of years ago and then moved on to his next project. I think it's also possible that God as an individual doesn't exist at all.

The fact is that I don't know. And I don't think anybody really does. All I can do is live my life according to what I think are moral values and let the chips fall where they may.

I can fully respect this viewpoint. I will say however that I wish you fully explore the Bible and its teachings. I think one thing that has sullied Christianity is the wide range of beliefs it encompasses. Mormons, Catholics, Jews, Muslims (on and on) all of these groups have members who consider themselves to be Christians or believe in Christianity. Even throw in those idiots from Westboro who claim to be Christians, and the media perspective on Christianity is one of disdain.

I do not wish to call myself a Christian, because I believe the word has been skewed so badly that the term "Christian" implies nothing of importance. I consider myself to be a sinner saved by Grace. Only through Christ's blood is there a remission of sins, and I know and accept that Christ died for my sins and I accept his free gift of salvation. I am not saved by going to Church or doing good deeds, or being a good person. I am saved and redeemed by and through Jesus Christ alone. He is my hope and my resurrection. I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I will be in heaven when I die.


Brainiac and anyone else who reads this, I implore you to do your research. I am not preaching at you, but I would be remiss if I did not tell you that you are missing out on the greatest gift ever given. I will undoubtedly get made fun of for this post, but my ego does not matter when souls are looking for truth. Salvation is free to anyone who simply understands and accepts Jesus Christ and what he did. Your past doesn't matter, Jesus blood will wipe all and every sin away.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:24 AM   #119
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I would say there are a lot of believers who do not attend churches. They instead give their tithes to the poor instead of it going to mantain church mansions.
Many churches are bare bones and far from mansions..
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:29 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by OrtonsPiercedTaint View Post
I would say there are a lot of believers who do not attend churches. They instead give their tithes to the poor instead of it going to mantain church mansions.
Church is not meant to be defined as a tangible structure. Church can take place anywhere believers are gathered together. The building and the dressing are irrelevant to the true definition. I will agree that some believers do not like attending an extravagant building. Finding church mansions is pretty difficult, most churches in my area are very modest, but essential in need for evangelism.
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Urban Meyer: We're going to rotate them right away. We don't redshirt here at Ohio State. We're changing that up. We're going to have the culture out here that there's no redshirting. If you don't play here, it's because you're not good enough. It's not because we're holding you back. We're going to recruit the kind of player where we want them on the field right now. That's the approach we took at Florida, and it's the approach we're going to take here.
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