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Old 03-02-2014, 12:04 PM  
Fairplay Fairplay is offline
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United States has a weak and indecisive president

Does anyone take this president seriously?

Graham to Obama: 'Not your strong suit'

Sen. Lindsey Graham said on Sunday that President Barack Obama needs to "stop going on television and trying to threaten thugs and dictators."

"It is not your strong suit. Every time the president goes on national television and threatens Putin or anyone like Putin, everyone’s eyes roll, including mine," the South Carolina Republican said on CNN's "State of the Union."

Addressing the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, Graham said the United States has a "weak and indecisive president that invited aggression."

"President Obama needs to do something," Graham said. "How about this: Suspend Russian membership in the G8 and the G20 at least for a year, starting right now and every day they stay in Crimea after the suspension. Do something.”

http://www.politico.com/blogs/politi...283.html?hp=l1
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:47 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The history does not support, at all, your assertion that Obama provides empty rhetoric, assuming you are willing to accept anything less than bombing russia. If Russia proceeds to a full-blown invasion and takes over Ukraine or something like that, it will probably lead to widespread crippling economic sanctions and export controls against russia.

You apparently are complaining that the USA hasn't reacted with sanctions and punishments instantaneously, which is absurd. Nor does Obama's words on the matter require it to avoid looking "weak".

If NATO behind closed doors spells out the economic consequences and convinces Putin that this is a mistake and ultimately not worth it, they still have to give him a way to save face and avoid looking like he caved in to the west even if thats exactly what happens. A negotiated resolution where UN forces agree to "protect" the Russian people in Crimea which was the pretext of all this, Russia continues to operate in the ports they have been using for years, and the russian forces withdraw, would a pretty good outcome.

An angry public war of words and instant sanctions would make this sort of outcome impossible, and if you somehow think Obama's measured statements to this point require that action to avoid looking weak, I'd argue that basically saying nothing at all (which I guess is what you think he should do if this diplomatic out that I laid out is the plan), would also look absurd. He'd be hounded by the world press and his refusal to comment would become a story.
What is absurd was Obama giving a blatantly stern warning, Putin completely disregarding the warning, and then the u.s. Scrambling to determine the next step. It's not like this is just now happening. This has been happening for a really long time and Putin continues to thumb his nose at them. It sure seems like Obama takes a long time on all international issues to get up to speed, doesn't it? Why make those threats in public if you don't already have loaded a scenario where the opponent retaliates?

I am not a fan of overreaction. I believe sanctions and punishment are only necessary in this case because Obama already gave a stern warning and that just puts clown shoes on us. Had Obama stated a diplomatic or non interventionist route that would be a different story.

And this would all sink in a little better if Obama wasn't so smug about us/Russia relations in the past. He has a very big Putin problem. He is getting bullied in front of everyone. Whether his action is sanctions or no sanctions do SOMETHING.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:07 PM   #62
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The history does not support, at all, your assertion that Obama provides empty rhetoric, assuming you are willing to accept anything less than bombing russia. If Russia proceeds to a full-blown invasion and takes over Ukraine or something like that, it will probably lead to widespread crippling economic sanctions and export controls against russia.

You apparently are complaining that the USA hasn't reacted with sanctions and punishments instantaneously, which is absurd. Nor does Obama's words on the matter require it to avoid looking "weak".

If NATO behind closed doors spells out the economic consequences and convinces Putin that this is a mistake and ultimately not worth it, they still have to give him a way to save face and avoid looking like he caved in to the west even if thats exactly what happens. A negotiated resolution where UN forces agree to "protect" the Russian people in Crimea which was the pretext of all this, Russia continues to operate in the ports they have been using for years, and the russian forces withdraw, would a pretty good outcome.

An angry public war of words and instant sanctions would make this sort of outcome impossible, and if you somehow think Obama's measured statements to this point require that action to avoid looking weak, I'd argue that basically saying nothing at all (which I guess is what you think he should do if this diplomatic out that I laid out is the plan), would also look absurd. He'd be hounded by the world press and his refusal to comment would become a story.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:09 PM   #63
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
What is absurd was Obama giving a blatantly stern warning, Putin completely disregarding the warning, and then the u.s. Scrambling to determine the next step. It's not like this is just now happening. This has been happening for a really long time and Putin continues to thumb his nose at them. It sure seems like Obama takes a long time on all international issues to get up to speed, doesn't it? Why make those threats in public if you don't already have loaded a scenario where the opponent retaliates?

I am not a fan of overreaction. I believe sanctions and punishment are only necessary in this case because Obama already gave a stern warning and that just puts clown shoes on us. Had Obama stated a diplomatic or non interventionist route that would be a different story.

And this would all sink in a little better if Obama wasn't so smug about us/Russia relations in the past. He has a very big Putin problem. He is getting bullied in front of everyone. Whether his action is sanctions or no sanctions do SOMETHING.
This is all just nonsense. Some day, your magical superhero president will come and scare away all the Putins and bad people and a simple scowl will cause the bad guys to think twice about stepping out of line.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:43 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
This is all just nonsense. Some day, your magical superhero president will come and scare away all the Putins and bad people and a simple scowl will cause the bad guy tho about stepping out of line.
It is not nonsense. If you don't plan to act, then don't cowboy up with big words and an "or else" rhetoric. If you give "or else" rhetoric, then at least have a plan for how you back that up. They don't sound like they have even a semblance of a plan. They are indecisive at a time when we need an exact decision, even if that decision is to say we are weighing our options. So far, all we have done is warn them, threaten them that we will act if they thumb their nose at us, and now that they're doing that, we are basically coming back with more threats of "we really mean it this time." even if the decision is to do nothing, own it, and follow through.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:54 PM   #65
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
It is not nonsense. If you don't plan to act, then don't cowboy up with big words and an "or else" rhetoric. If you give "or else" rhetoric, then at least have a plan for how you back that up. They don't sound like they have even a semblance of a plan. They are indecisive at a time when we need an exact decision, even if that decision is to say we are weighing our options. So far, all we have done is warn them, threaten them that we will act if they thumb their nose at us, and now that they're doing that, we are basically coming back with more threats of "we really mean it this time." even if the decision is to do nothing, own it, and follow through.
And what were the big words and "or else" rhetoric that was used?
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:10 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
And what were the big words and or else" rhetoric that was used?
So based on all the rhetoric...

Did Obama and Kerry clearly state that military action in ukraine was acceptable?

Did they indicate that there will be costs to Russia intervening in the Ukraine?

How much clearer do you want them to be?
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:15 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I am not an isolationist in the real meaning of the word. I am a non-interventionist. There is a difference. I am for dialogue, trade and cultural exchanges with other countries--NOT for being like 19th century Japan.

Last I recalled, you did not support any war the US has been in since the American Revolution. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Are there any wars since then that you believe the US was rightly involved in?
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:23 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Last I recalled, you did not support any war the US has been in since the American Revolution. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Are there any wars since then that you believe the US was rightly involved in?
You are mistaken because you have poor reading skills resulting in making chronic strawman arguments. In fact, I did not consider 1812 illegitimate even--just aspects. Nor WWII despite FDR's complicity;so far not even on the Mexican war pending more reading. It's foreign wars of intervention and of choice you have trouble making the distinction on.

May I ask what part of the word interventionist you don't understand?
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:57 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
So based on all the rhetoric...

Did Obama and Kerry clearly state that military action in ukraine was acceptable?

Did they indicate that there will be costs to Russia intervening in the Ukraine?

How much clearer do you want them to be?
So, those are "big words?" Where's the "or else?"
There will be costs. Is it necessary to formally announce threats and an entire plan within 5 minutes? Maybe some coordination with allies might be beneficial?

This hypersensitivity to all things Obama and the minutiae of his every breath is just ridiculous.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:59 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
This hypersensitivity to all things Obama and the minutiae of his every breath is just ridiculous.
That's why your presence here is so invaluable. You provide the much-needed rational, fair minded analysis.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:59 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
You are mistaken because you have poor reading skills resulting in making chronic strawman arguments. In fact, I did not consider 1812 illegitimate even--just aspects. Nor WWII despite FDR's complicity;so far not even on the Mexican war pending more reading. It's foreign wars of intervention and of choice you have trouble making the distinction on.

May I ask what part of the word interventionist you don't understand?
You agree that we should have declared war against Germany and Italy?
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:14 PM   #72
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So, those are "big words?" Where's the "or else?"
There will be costs. Is it necessary to formally announce threats and an entire plan within 5 minutes maybe some coordination with allies might be beneficial?

This hypersensitivity to all things Obama and the minutiae of his every breath is just ridiculous.
It's not like this is a reaction from Obama. This has been a long time brewing. They have been clowned by Putin for years, and each time, Putin just laughs off US threats. It also doesnt help that Obama has directly stated apathy toward Russia in the past. Yes, I would expect that when you make threat of action, you would have some semblance of a plan in place. The US knew this was coming and they look indecisive and unprepared. Why? It's not like this is the first international incident where the Obama administration looked like they weren't prepared or decisive.

And yes, direct statements from Obama and Kerry saying this is unacceptable and that there will be costs... Not maybe costs... There will be costs are big words implying that if Russia took action against Ukraine, the US would be involved in opunishing. Not sure how you can spin it any other way.

And no, even if mmostly dislike Obama, I'm hardly a hardliner. I pass off a lot of conservatives on cp.
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:32 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
It's not like this is a reaction from Obama. This has been a long time brewing. They have been clowned by Putin for years, and each time, Putin just laughs off US threats. It also doesnt help that Obama has directly stated apathy toward Russia in the past. Yes, I would expect that when you make threat of action, you would have some semblance of a plan in place. The US knew this was coming and they look indecisive and unprepared. Why? It's not like this is the first international incident where the Obama administration looked like they weren't prepared or decisive.

And yes, direct statements from Obama and Kerry saying this is unacceptable and that there will be costs... Not maybe costs... There will be costs are big words implying that if Russia took action against Ukraine, the US would be involved in opunishing. Not sure how you can spin it any other way.

And no, even if mmostly dislike Obama, I'm hardly a hardliner. I pass off a lot of conservatives on cp.
Every event in the world = Obama's fault
If he wasn't so incompetent, nothing bad would have happened since Jan. 2009.
When something bad does happen, magic words would solve it. Obama just never knows the magic words.
You're simply being a moron.
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:44 PM   #74
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It also doesnt help that Obama has directly stated apathy toward Russia in the past..
You have to wonder what Putin and his gang thought of Obama's juvenile "The 80s are calling" dud he tossed out at Romney. I bet they laughed their balls off not only at his naivety, but our electorate's.
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:16 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Every event in the world = Obama's fault
If he wasn't so incompetent, nothing bad would have happened since Jan. 2009.
When something bad does happen, magic words would solve it. Obama just never knows the magic words.
You're simply being a moron.
There is no conservative on this board that would ever accuse me of being an Obama critic. I've been called a prog plenty of times. So rest it with the "you blame Obama for everything" BS.
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