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Old 03-14-2014, 06:19 PM  
ChiefsandO'sfan ChiefsandO'sfan is offline
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Wyoming welder faces $75,000 a day in EPA fines for building pond on his property

All Andy Johnson wanted to do was build a stock pond on his sprawling eight-acre Wyoming farm. He and his wife Katie spent hours constructing it, filling it with crystal-clear water, and bringing in brook and brown trout, ducks and geese. It was a place where his horses could drink and graze, and a private playground for his three children.

But instead of enjoying the fruits of his labor, the Wyoming welder says he was harangued by the federal government, stuck in what he calls a petty power play by the Environmental Protection Agency. He claims the agency is now threatening him with civil and criminal penalties – including the threat of a $75,000-a-day fine.

“I have not paid them a dime nor will I,” a defiant Johnson told FoxNews.com. “I will go bankrupt if I have to fighting it. My wife and I built [the pond] together. We put our blood, sweat and tears into it. It was our dream.”

But Johnson may be in for a rude awakening.

The government says he violated the Clean Water Act by building a dam on a creek without a permit from the Army Corps of Engineers. Further, the EPA claims that material from his pond is being discharged into other waterways. Johnson says he built a stock pond -- a man-made pond meant to attract wildlife -- which is exempt from Clean Water Act regulations.

The property owner says he followed the state rules for a stock pond when he built it in 2012 and has an April 4-dated letter from the Wyoming State Engineer’s Office to prove it.

“Said permit is in good standing and is entitled to be exercised exactly as permitted,” the state agency letter to Johnson said.

But the EPA isn’t backing down and argues they have final say over the issue. They also say Johnson needs to restore the land or face the fines.

Johnson plans to fight. “This goes a lot further than a pond,” he said. “It’s about a person’s rights. I have three little kids. I am not going to roll over and let [the government] tell me what I can do on my land. I followed the rules.”

Johnson says he was “bombarded by hopelessness” when he first received the administrative order from the EPA. He then turned to state lawmakers who fast-tracked his pleas to Wyoming’s two U.S. senators, John Barrasso and Mike Enzi, and Louisiana Sen. David Vitter.

The Republican lawmakers sent a March 12 letter to Nancy Stoner, the EPA’s acting assistant administration for water, saying they were “troubled” by Johnson’s case and demanding the EPA withdraw the compliance order.

“Rather than a sober administration of the Clean Water Act, the Compliance Order reads like a draconian edict of a heavy-handed bureaucracy,” the letter states.

The EPA order on Jan. 30 gave Johnson 30 days to hire a consultant and have him or her assess the impact of the supposed unauthorized discharges. The report was also supposed to include a restoration proposal to be approved by the EPA as well as contain a schedule requiring all work be completed within 60 days of the plan's approval.

If Johnson doesn’t comply -- and he hasn't so far -- he’s subject to $37,500 per day in civil penalties as well as another $37,500 per day in fines for statutory violations.

The senators' letter questioned the argument that Johnson built a dam and not a stock pond.

“Fairness and due process require the EPA base its compliance order on more than an assumption,” they wrote. “Instead of treating Mr. Johnson as guilty until he proves his innocence by demonstrating his entitlement to the Clean Water Act section 404 (f)(1)(C) stock pond exemption, EPA should make its case that a dam was built and that the Section 404 exemption does not apply.”

The EPA told FoxNews.com that it is reviewing the senators' letter. "We will carefully evaluate any additional information received, and all of the facts regarding this case," a spokeswoman for the agency said.

The authority of the EPA has recently been called into question over proposed rule changes that would redefine what bodies of water the government agency will oversee under the Clean Water Act.

The proposed changes would give the agency a say in ponds, lakes, wetlands and any stream -- natural or manmade -- that would have an effect on downstream navigable waters on both public land and private property. “If the compliance order stands as an example of how EPA intends to operate after completing its current ‘waters of the United States’ rulemaking, it should give pause to each and every landowner throughout the country,” the letter states.

For now, the matter remains unresolved. Johnson says he’s not budging and there’s been no indication from the EPA they will withdraw the compliance order.

Regardless of the outcome, Johnson says his legal fight with the government agency is a teachable moment for his kids

“This is showing them that they shouldn’t back down,” Johnson said. “If you need to stand up and fight, you do it.”


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...-own-property/
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:59 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Or you know there is this wonderful thing called the civil court system, so if some company pollutes your property without prior agreement you can sue them for damages.
It all depends on how much money the polluter can throw at the problem and still remain in business.

Your towns little Rockwell painting honeyhole doesn't mean SHIT if the money is right... I had PLENTY of chances to work for the only factory in town (refused), used to be Mobil chemical now its Reynolds plastics... when Mobil was in charge they almost killed the towns lakes, MASSIVE fish die offs that would litter the shores... now, its a not as bad but the catfish still show up with lesions, gold and purple looking lesions that beg the question "what are you allowing our town to become".

Water people, water... you can live for 3 weeks without food, they might be ugly but you will live... water? you WILL be dead within 3 days, 4 at a maximum if you cant have clean water.

Don't think it cant happen to you America, you're not so special in the eyes of the elites, you're not.
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:59 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
thats how you get superfund sites or spills in waterways (like what happened recently in west virginia). Unfortunately we dont live in a world where all people are good stewards of nature.

This kind of goes to show you how reactionary people are. You here a biased story like this article and people scream "gut the EPA." I bet if brown water was coming out of your pipes and you were living on property that was toxic, you would be the first to scream "there should be a law against that."

If you want to see what a world is without an EPA, take a look at what is going on in places like China and India.
When the EPA man is chasing me & my

around West Omaha & threatening me over water & sand?
Well Mr. planetdoc.........You just need to just . Maybe you are one of these EPA guys, with the EPA ego, that I want to kill with my 2 hands?

Last edited by LiveSteam; 03-14-2014 at 09:05 PM..
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:08 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
When the EPA man is chasing me & my
around West Omaha & threatening me over water & sand?
Well Mr. planetdoc.........You just need to just . Maybe you are one of these EPA guys, with the EPA ego, that I want to kill with my 2 hands?
And what would Mr. EPA man say about what you are doing? What I mean is, what is the real story?
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:14 PM   #19
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And what would Mr. EPA man say about what you are doing? What I mean is, what is the real story?
Every now & then, a yard has a sharp grade. When my guys clean the mixer at the end of the day, a lil sandy water (sometimes) makes it to the street.
GOD FORBID! My 3 bag Stow is a danger to thee environment.

They hassle the **** out of builders. EgoEPA has WAY to many employes

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Old 03-14-2014, 09:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
thats how you get superfund sites or spills in waterways (like what happened recently in west virginia). Unfortunately we dont live in a world where all people are good stewards of nature.

This kind of goes to show you how reactionary people are. You here a biased story like this article and people scream "gut the EPA." I bet if brown water was coming out of your pipes and you were living on property that was toxic, you would be the first to scream "there should be a law against that."

If you want to see what a world is without an EPA, take a look at what is going on in places like China and India.

But with the EPA you still had the spill in West Virginia….And before we had the EPA we were not China or India. Hyperbole on your part is not reason for the rest of us to live in a police state,
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:22 PM   #21
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The Administrator of the EPA, Gina McCarthy, is testing the power of the EPA in advance of the passage of harsh new rules that will give the EPA control of all the bodies of water in the country. The EPA sees themselves as the overseers of all water on all property in the United States, public or private, whether it be lakes, streams or even ditches.

No landowner’s property will be safe from these people. These assholes are out of control.
that would be going to far, IMO. There needs to be balance.

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Or we could look at how states control their own resources. People like you want to give people that don't live in a certain region rights to control those that do live there. Like they are more brilliant then the local managers or something. I bet you didn't understand my post.
I understand your post, but I think there should be national minimum rules. Unfortunately, it seems that politicians are beholden to their campaign donors....many of which are big corporations. A state such as west virginia, for example, may have lacks coal regulations and enforcement since its a major livelihood. When problems arrises the burden is much greater that just the company and their employees.

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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Or you know there is this wonderful thing called the civil court system, so if some company pollutes your property without prior agreement you can sue them for damages.
assuming you have enough money to fight.
1. companies tend to have more money and time than an individual.

2. companies tend to be well protected (such as an LLC or shell company). If you ever win, than they declare bankruptcy or divert their assets to company 1 and liabilities to company 2. The taxpayer ends up paying for the problem....thus superfund sites.

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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
It all depends on how much money the polluter can throw at the problem and still remain in business.

Don't think it cant happen to you America, you're not so special in the eyes of the elites, you're not.
pretty much. money talks...bullshit walks.

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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
Maybe you are one of these EPA guys, with the EPA ego, that I want to kill with my 2 hands?
money talks, bullshit walks internet tough guy.

Once again, I think everyone would be happy if we all were good stewards of nature and loved our neighbors like ourselves. Unfortunately everyone isnt like that.

This guy likely wouldnt be in the situation he is in now if he didnt damn, and divert creek water. Thats not fair to the people downstream of him who maybe need that water too.
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:29 PM   #22
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But with the EPA you still had the spill in West Virginia….
regulations are only as good as enforcement.

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And before we had the EPA we were not China or India. Hyperbole on your part is not reason for the rest of us to live in a police state,
actually the US had alot of environmental problems. China and India are going through their own industrialized revolution. During that time in US history industrialized waste was dumped directly in waterways. You can see those impacts of pollution in any of the old US manufacturing cities. Heck, just take a look at the superfund sites in Kansas alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ites_in_Kansas

dont want the people of Missouri to feel left out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_in_Missouri

you all might not care about environmental contamination, but remember it will be your children and grandchildren who will have to deal with the costs to taxpayers to clean things up, and the increased risk of medical problems.

penny wise pound foolish.
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Old 03-15-2014, 07:35 AM   #23
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Or you know there is this wonderful thing called the civil court system, so if some company pollutes your property without prior agreement you can sue them for damages.
All, right, yea!!!

I only have an option to change a companies behavior AFTER they ruin my crops with water pollution.

That makes everything great!
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Old 03-15-2014, 07:58 AM   #24
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All, right, yea!!!

I only have an option to change a companies behavior AFTER they ruin my crops with water pollution.

That makes everything great!
Odd shit going on in your head. Are you related to Art Bell?
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Old 03-15-2014, 08:10 AM   #25
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Odd shit going on in your head. Are you related to Art Bell?
See this statement?

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Or you know there is this wonderful thing called the civil court system, so if some company pollutes your property without prior agreement you can sue them for damages.
That is supporting a system where companies can pollute as much as they want UNTIL something goes wrong.

NOT, stop the pollution so things don't go wrong, but LET something go wrong, then address it.

So, let us say I am a farmer. Instead there being regulations to stop pollution from ruining my livelihood, he is advocating to let the pollution ruin my crops and THEN I can do something about it.

Which is stupid.
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Old 03-15-2014, 08:47 AM   #26
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There was a pesky EPA character in the novel Unintended Consequences, he got dealt with appropriately in my opinion.
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:43 AM   #27
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See this statement?



That is supporting a system where companies can pollute as much as they want UNTIL something goes wrong.

NOT, stop the pollution so things don't go wrong, but LET something go wrong, then address it.

So, let us say I am a farmer. Instead there being regulations to stop pollution from ruining my livelihood, he is advocating to let the pollution ruin my crops and THEN I can do something about it.

Which is stupid.
Yes, I don't think you should restrict someone's behavior until they actually cause harm or if you have an agreement with the company where they pay you for x amount of damage to your property (this happens a lot in the oil and gas industry) and then the company violates that agreement by causing more damage.

Regulations are often either overbearing, outdated, nonsensical or simply encourage companies to do the minimum. Strict liability with no liability caps (hey, I want to take away some corporate welfare here) means that the person financially responsible be it the company or the insurance company that the company gets its liability insurance from is very interested that nothing goes wrong.

Another thing is that the EPA can preempt the tort claims of property owners or people under federal guidelines so that the government can collect fines but the actual persons being harmed cannot collect under civil courts.
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:54 AM   #28
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I guess the issue is if the permit gave him the right to dam the creek. If it does, then the EPA needs to be talking to the state, not him.
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:04 AM   #29
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Unless I'm reading this wrong, it sounds like it's in dispute over whether he damned a creek.
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:16 AM   #30
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I guess the issue is if the permit gave him the right to dam the creek. If it does, then the EPA needs to be talking to the state, not him.
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