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Old 05-07-2014, 07:22 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Meanshile, the IRS scandal is heating up...

Washington Post: There are plenty of smidgens in the IRS scandal
BY ED ROGERS

Today, the House Rules Committee is considering a resolution recommending that former IRS official Lois Lerner be held in contempt for refusing to answer questions about her role in the IRS targeting of President Obama’s political opponents. It is likely that the resolution will pass, and then it will come to the floor for a full vote in the House. When it does, the vote to hold Lerner in contempt should be bipartisan – if not unanimous. Any Democrats who vote “no” should be labeled as enablers of obstruction of justice. It should be impossible for Democrats to defend a vote that could only serve to encourage more corruption and non-cooperation in the future. Of course Lerner had the right to plead the fifth, but that doesn’t mean Democrats should not pay a price for voting to bless her stonewalling.

In an interview with Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly in February, President Obama pre-empted his own Department of Justice investigation and declared that there was not a “smidgen of corruption” in the IRS scandal. Well, I think a senior official at the center of the allegations pleading the fifth constitutes a smidgen. It is not unfair to draw logical inferences from her continued refusal to cooperate with the investigation into the IRS targeting of conservative groups. To the best of my knowledge, no one in this White House has ever called on Lerner to cooperate. Why? Because they know it is not in their interest for her to cooperate. They hope she will continue her silence in comfortable retirement and that Republicans and the media will be intimidated into giving up. Or, at the very least, they hope they can run out the clock on the remainder of Obama’s term.

Meanwhile, at the Justice Department, the White House has built a firewall by appointing Obama donor Barbara Bosserman to head the investigation into the IRS affair. No smidgens here folks. Move along, nothing to see. Please. Someone in this Administration is guilty of manipulating the IRS – or, is guilty of knowing that the IRS was engaging in activities that targeted the president’s political opponents. There are smidgens lying all over the place.

The very idea that the administration would protect someone who is hiding behind the fifth when there is not only smoke, but there is actually a clear glow of flames, is insulting. The 2014 election should be about the economy and Obamacare. We don’t need to keep adding exclamation points to every new Benghazi revelation. But at least the IRS scandal is related to the two election issues that really matter. The whole IRS debacle should be a bottomless pit of outrage, demands, select committees and whatever else from Republicans in Congress.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e-irs-scandal/
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:14 AM   #16
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
I would think the words not guilty, would qualify as testimony
That's because, like most topics not involving meth, choo-choo trains, or being anally pounded by frazod, you don't know what you are talking about.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:23 AM   #17
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo Jojo View Post
You need to go further into Mitchell...
It is well established that a witness, in a single proceeding, may not testify voluntarily about a subject and then invoke the privilege against self-incrimination when questioned about the details. See Rogers v. United States, 340 U.S. 367, 373 (1951).
The question before the court will be after being sworn in and making a claim of not guilty voluntarily...is that testimony.
Rogers:
"Having freely answered self-incriminating questions relating to her connection with the Communist Party, petitioner could not refuse to answer further questions which would not subject her to a real danger of further incrimination."

In that case, she answered questions, then tried to invoke. Plus, by her own admission, she wasn't really protecting herself--she was protecting someone else. That's not the case with Lerner.

Have you run across any case where an opening statement (to Congress would be most relevant) was deemed a waiver?
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:24 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
I only 'know' what I've read--which is that a lot of these 501whatever groups received extra scrutiny which included mostly, but not solely, conservative groups. Not sure what that has to do with my post. She invoked the 5th as is her right. That may be frustrating to many, but it is her right, and to champion constitution rights while endorsing punishment for her is pretty damn hypocritical.
No, not just "extra scrutiny", those conservative groups had their paperwork substantially delayed. Do you recall members of the Obama administration admitting this and apologizing for it?
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:28 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
No, not just "extra scrutiny", those conservative groups had their paperwork substantially delayed. Do you recall members of the Obama administration admitting this and apologizing for it?
Ok, delayed, along with the others. What's this have to do with my post, which was regarding punishment for invoking the 5th?
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:34 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Ok, delayed, along with the others. What's this have to do with my post, which was regarding punishment for invoking the 5th?
Some people feel that she waived that right. I have seen interesting discussions on both sides, so I am following the story. Your post not only mocks people who would rather that the country follow its own legal documents but also supposes that people who feel this way should rise to defend her based solely on your opinion. It's a deflection from the actual story.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:36 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Hey all you rabid Constitution defenders out there--I'm looking forward to reading your posts of outrage as the House puts politics above the Constitution and recommends punishment for someone exercising a constitutional right.
The House is recommending prosecution because they don't believe she was exercising a constitutional right. If a determination is made that she was, she won't be punished.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:44 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
Some people feel that she waived that right. I have seen interesting discussions on both sides, so I am following the story. Your post not only mocks people who would rather that the country follow its own legal documents but also supposes that people who feel this way should rise to defend her based solely on your opinion. It's a deflection from the actual story.
Yeah, "some people" feel that way. Go find a situation like this where invoking the 5th was deemed waived.

And I mock people who SAY they want the country to follow its legal documents but really don't. It's not my opinion. It is the opinion of the people who make such judgments.

What's a deflection? I WANT her to testify. Holding her in contempt for invoking is bullshit though.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:47 AM   #23
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The House is recommending prosecution because they don't believe she was exercising a constitutional right. If a determination is made that she was, she won't be punished.
They know she didn't waive. Yeah, she won't be punished--except for having to go through all the BS to establish what is obvious to anyone with access to basic court rulings on the internet.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Yeah, "some people" feel that way. Go find a situation like this where invoking the 5th was deemed waived.

And I mock people who SAY they want the country to follow its legal documents but really don't. It's not my opinion. It is the opinion of the people who make such judgments.

What's a deflection? I WANT her to testify. Holding her in contempt for invoking is bullshit though.
Mojo Jojo already did that. And you mocked people who you PERCEIVE to be hypocritical because your OPINION differs from theirs. It's just your opinion. And yeah, it's a deflection.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
They know she didn't waive. Yeah, she won't be punished--except for having to go through all the BS to establish what is obvious to anyone with access to basic court rulings on the internet.
Like this guy?

http://www.popehat.com/2014/03/05/a-...fth-amendment/
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
Mojo Jojo already did that. And you mocked people who you PERCEIVE to be hypocritical because your OPINION differs from theirs. It's just your opinion. And yeah, it's a deflection.
No he didn't, BEP. Which case?
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:58 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
No he didn't, BEP. Which case?

Yeah he did, Direckshun. Go look it up.
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Old 05-08-2014, 01:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
She gave no admission of guilt and did not answer any questions. She didn't waive.

I thought this was interesting though:

"What Does She Have To Hide?"
I've been seeing a lot of comments to the effect of "why should Lois Lerner take the Fifth if she has nothing to hide?" Ironically these comments often come from people who profess to oppose expansive government power, and from people who accept the proposition that Lerner was part of wrongdoing in the first place — in other words, that there was a government conspiracy to target people with the machinery of the IRS for holding unpopular political views. Such people do not seem to grasp how their predicate assumptions answer their own question.

You take the Fifth because the government can't be trusted. You take the Fifth because what the truth is, and what the government thinks the truth is, are two very different things. You take the Fifth because even if you didn't do anything wrong your statements can be used as building blocks in dishonest, or malicious, or politically motivated prosecutions against you. You take the Fifth because if you answer questions truthfully the government may still decide you are lying and prosecute you for lying.

Pardon me: if you accept the proposition that the government targets organizations for IRS scrutiny because of their political views, and you still say things like "why take the Fifth if you have nothing to hide", then you're either an idiot or a dishonest partisan hack.
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Old 05-08-2014, 01:13 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
...
I thought this was interesting though:

"What Does She Have To Hide?"
I've been seeing a lot of comments to the effect of "why should Lois Lerner take the Fifth if she has nothing to hide?" Ironically these comments often come from people who profess to oppose expansive government power, and from people who accept the proposition that Lerner was part of wrongdoing in the first place — in other words, that there was a government conspiracy to target people with the machinery of the IRS for holding unpopular political views. Such people do not seem to grasp how their predicate assumptions answer their own question.

You take the Fifth because the government can't be trusted. You take the Fifth because what the truth is, and what the government thinks the truth is, are two very different things. You take the Fifth because even if you didn't do anything wrong your statements can be used as building blocks in dishonest, or malicious, or politically motivated prosecutions against you. You take the Fifth because if you answer questions truthfully the government may still decide you are lying and prosecute you for lying.

Pardon me: if you accept the proposition that the government targets organizations for IRS scrutiny because of their political views, and you still say things like "why take the Fifth if you have nothing to hide", then you're either an idiot or a dishonest partisan hack.
Oh, definitely. I'm sure she understands exactly how badly the government can screw you over. It was her institution that just recently did it. And she has to realize that she has become part of a large game if not the political football itself to some loathsome hacks from both sides of the aisle.
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Old 05-08-2014, 08:17 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Hey all you rabid Constitution defenders out there--I'm looking forward to reading your posts of outrage as the House puts politics above the Constitution and recommends punishment for someone exercising a constitutional right.
Why don't you put the names of the people you're accusing of hypocrisy in your post?
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