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Old 05-07-2014, 06:22 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Meanshile, the IRS scandal is heating up...

Washington Post: There are plenty of smidgens in the IRS scandal
BY ED ROGERS

Today, the House Rules Committee is considering a resolution recommending that former IRS official Lois Lerner be held in contempt for refusing to answer questions about her role in the IRS targeting of President Obama’s political opponents. It is likely that the resolution will pass, and then it will come to the floor for a full vote in the House. When it does, the vote to hold Lerner in contempt should be bipartisan – if not unanimous. Any Democrats who vote “no” should be labeled as enablers of obstruction of justice. It should be impossible for Democrats to defend a vote that could only serve to encourage more corruption and non-cooperation in the future. Of course Lerner had the right to plead the fifth, but that doesn’t mean Democrats should not pay a price for voting to bless her stonewalling.

In an interview with Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly in February, President Obama pre-empted his own Department of Justice investigation and declared that there was not a “smidgen of corruption” in the IRS scandal. Well, I think a senior official at the center of the allegations pleading the fifth constitutes a smidgen. It is not unfair to draw logical inferences from her continued refusal to cooperate with the investigation into the IRS targeting of conservative groups. To the best of my knowledge, no one in this White House has ever called on Lerner to cooperate. Why? Because they know it is not in their interest for her to cooperate. They hope she will continue her silence in comfortable retirement and that Republicans and the media will be intimidated into giving up. Or, at the very least, they hope they can run out the clock on the remainder of Obama’s term.

Meanwhile, at the Justice Department, the White House has built a firewall by appointing Obama donor Barbara Bosserman to head the investigation into the IRS affair. No smidgens here folks. Move along, nothing to see. Please. Someone in this Administration is guilty of manipulating the IRS – or, is guilty of knowing that the IRS was engaging in activities that targeted the president’s political opponents. There are smidgens lying all over the place.

The very idea that the administration would protect someone who is hiding behind the fifth when there is not only smoke, but there is actually a clear glow of flames, is insulting. The 2014 election should be about the economy and Obamacare. We don’t need to keep adding exclamation points to every new Benghazi revelation. But at least the IRS scandal is related to the two election issues that really matter. The whole IRS debacle should be a bottomless pit of outrage, demands, select committees and whatever else from Republicans in Congress.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e-irs-scandal/
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:25 AM   #31
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Oh, definitely. I'm sure she understands exactly how badly the government can screw you over. It was her institution that just recently did it. And she has to realize that she has become part of a large game if not the political football itself to some loathsome hacks from both sides of the aisle.
. Yeah she should understand since she is part of the problem.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:26 AM   #32
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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[b] Of course Lerner had the right to plead the fifth, but that doesn’t mean Democrats should not pay a price for voting to bless her stonewalling.
errr....so Congress should vote to try to ignore someone's Constitutional protections? That's what I'm reading here? And any Congresscritter who does NOT vote in favor of ignoring Constitutional protections should "pay a price"?!? Seriously?

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Well, I think a senior official at the center of the allegations pleading the fifth constitutes a smidgen. It is not unfair to draw logical inferences from her continued refusal to cooperate with the investigation into the IRS targeting of conservative groups.
So...pleading the Fifth constitutes an admission of wrongdoing? That's in part what the Fifth was designed to protect against.

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They hope she will continue her silence in comfortable retirement and that Republicans and the media will be intimidated into giving up. Or, at the very least, they hope they can run out the clock on the remainder of Obama’s term.
Intimidated by whom? What intimidation has there been??


I have NO problem with Congress investigating this. Thoroughly. It absolutely should. But this article is just ridiculous.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:30 AM   #33
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At this point, I'm surprised they haven't offered her immunity in exchange for her testimony.

Yes that would prevent them from being able to prosecute a main character in the mess, but it would be worth it to get a better insight as to the extent the corruption existed. As it stands now, she can't be prosecuted AND we don't know. I doubt both things are going to happen.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:33 AM   #34
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Her abuses & crime should go unpunished? Were talking about abusing the power of the IRS Amnorix's
Not some shoplifting, misdemeanor crime here dude
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:49 AM   #35
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Her abuses & crime should go unpunished? Were talking about abusing the power of the IRS Amnorix's
Not some shoplifting, misdemeanor crime here dude
I'm just saying that you probably won't get everything. To find out what extent she is complicit AND finding out how broad the corruption was probaly isn't going to happen.

Without the 'smoking gun' I just don't see this leading anywhere. And the only way to get that is if someone in the know testifies. But I'm guessing that won't happen without the offer of immunity.

If Republicans are satisfied with Lerner being the fish they catch, then they can go the direction they are going. If they suspect the corruption goes higher up the ladder (maybe not to the White House, but possibly to members of Congress), then they are going to have to give her a reason to testify truthfully. I don't like it either, but that's the scum ridden waters of Washington.
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:18 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
Her abuses & crime should go unpunished? Were talking about abusing the power of the IRS Amnorix's
Not some shoplifting, misdemeanor crime here dude
They can be punished. They just can't make her give testimony that would incriminate herself. You can't force a murderer to testify. Doesn't mean they can't be prosecuted.
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:27 AM   #37
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
At this point, I'm surprised they haven't offered her immunity in exchange for her testimony.

Yes that would prevent them from being able to prosecute a main character in the mess, but it would be worth it to get a better insight as to the extent the corruption existed. As it stands now, she can't be prosecuted AND we don't know. I doubt both things are going to happen.
Her attorney said months ago she would testify if she had immunity.
So why not give it?

One obvious answer is that they know she doesn't have much to offer. If they really thought that her testimony would help link this to Obama--don't you think they would give immunity in a heartbeat?

If they aren't going to get that link, she remains more valuable as someone refusing to testify. They can complain that they're sure Obama is in on this, but Lerner is hiding the information and obstructing the whole thing by not testifying.
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:03 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Her attorney said months ago she would testify if she had immunity.
So why not give it?

One obvious answer is that they know she doesn't have much to offer. If they really thought that her testimony would help link this to Obama--don't you think they would give immunity in a heartbeat?

If they aren't going to get that link, she remains more valuable as someone refusing to testify. They can complain that they're sure Obama is in on this, but Lerner is hiding the information and obstructing the whole thing by not testifying.
I don't hear people complaining that they're sure Obama is in on this.
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:17 AM   #39
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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I don't hear people complaining that they're sure Obama is in on this.
Not sure if serious.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:13 PM   #40
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Her abuses & crime should go unpunished? Were talking about abusing the power of the IRS Amnorix's

Wait, wait, wait. Who the hell said anything about letting any "abuses and crimes go unpunished"? Certainly not me.

Look, the Fifth Amendment exists. You might not like it much, but it does, and it's pretty darn UNlikely that she waived with with her opening statement.

Congress doesn't have the job of punishing abuses and crimes. They have oversight duties, and certainly their oversight can include issuing subpoenas and calling in witnesses who must testify under oath, or plead the Fifth if they choose. If their investigation reveals "abuses and crimes", then those committing those crimes should be punished, absolutely.

But none of that has a damn thing to do with whether she WAIVED her Fifth Amendment RIGHTS.

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Not some shoplifting, misdemeanor crime here dude

You don't lose the Fifth Amendment because the alleged crime is really bad. You get it for any crime, from shoplifting all the way up to murder.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:15 PM   #41
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errr....so Congress should vote to try to ignore someone's Constitutional protections? That's what I'm reading here? And any Congresscritter who does NOT vote in favor of ignoring Constitutional protections should "pay a price"?!? Seriously?



So...pleading the Fifth constitutes an admission of wrongdoing? That's in part what the Fifth was designed to protect against.



Intimidated by whom? What intimidation has there been??


I have NO problem with Congress investigating this. Thoroughly. It absolutely should. But this article is just ridiculous.
Paultards are only strict constructionists when it suits them.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:30 PM   #42
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Paultards are only strict constructionists when it suits them.
There's no strict construction for the idea of waiving the 5th amendment right. In fact, I've never really liked the idea that it can be waived simply by initially cooperating as opposed to an explicit waiver. However, given the state of the law, I'm not sure it's as clear as some here would like to say it is. I think it's more likely than not that a court would say she didn't waive her rights by voluntarily providing self-serving testimony in the form of an opening statement, but I don't think it's a lot better than 50/50.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:35 PM   #43
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There's no strict construction for the idea of waiving the 5th amendment right. In fact, I've never really liked the idea that it can be waived simply by initially cooperating as opposed to an explicit waiver. However, given the state of the law, I'm not sure it's as clear as some here would like to say it is. I think it's more likely than not that a court would say she didn't waive her rights by voluntarily providing self-serving testimony in the form of an opening statement, but I don't think it's a lot better than 50/50.
And for those, like cosmo, who are relying on previous precedent and pretending that because this very circumstance has never been established as a waiver situation, how does that work for you when the left makes an argument to establish new precedent in previously undecided territory (like, for example, arguing that denying same sex marriage violates the equal protection clause even though we've gone for over a century without any precedent to that effect)?
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:05 PM   #44
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IRS is now going to turn over all Lerner emails
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:07 PM   #45
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IRS is now going to turn over all Lerner emails
I wonder how many will be redacted.
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