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Old 05-07-2014, 07:22 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Meanshile, the IRS scandal is heating up...

Washington Post: There are plenty of smidgens in the IRS scandal
BY ED ROGERS

Today, the House Rules Committee is considering a resolution recommending that former IRS official Lois Lerner be held in contempt for refusing to answer questions about her role in the IRS targeting of President Obama’s political opponents. It is likely that the resolution will pass, and then it will come to the floor for a full vote in the House. When it does, the vote to hold Lerner in contempt should be bipartisan – if not unanimous. Any Democrats who vote “no” should be labeled as enablers of obstruction of justice. It should be impossible for Democrats to defend a vote that could only serve to encourage more corruption and non-cooperation in the future. Of course Lerner had the right to plead the fifth, but that doesn’t mean Democrats should not pay a price for voting to bless her stonewalling.

In an interview with Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly in February, President Obama pre-empted his own Department of Justice investigation and declared that there was not a “smidgen of corruption” in the IRS scandal. Well, I think a senior official at the center of the allegations pleading the fifth constitutes a smidgen. It is not unfair to draw logical inferences from her continued refusal to cooperate with the investigation into the IRS targeting of conservative groups. To the best of my knowledge, no one in this White House has ever called on Lerner to cooperate. Why? Because they know it is not in their interest for her to cooperate. They hope she will continue her silence in comfortable retirement and that Republicans and the media will be intimidated into giving up. Or, at the very least, they hope they can run out the clock on the remainder of Obama’s term.

Meanwhile, at the Justice Department, the White House has built a firewall by appointing Obama donor Barbara Bosserman to head the investigation into the IRS affair. No smidgens here folks. Move along, nothing to see. Please. Someone in this Administration is guilty of manipulating the IRS – or, is guilty of knowing that the IRS was engaging in activities that targeted the president’s political opponents. There are smidgens lying all over the place.

The very idea that the administration would protect someone who is hiding behind the fifth when there is not only smoke, but there is actually a clear glow of flames, is insulting. The 2014 election should be about the economy and Obamacare. We don’t need to keep adding exclamation points to every new Benghazi revelation. But at least the IRS scandal is related to the two election issues that really matter. The whole IRS debacle should be a bottomless pit of outrage, demands, select committees and whatever else from Republicans in Congress.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e-irs-scandal/
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
IRS is now going to turn over all Lerner emails
Just like the White House did with Benghazi? Oops, must have missed a few there. Plus a bunch of them had outside accounts to do business they didn't want going into the public record
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I wonder how many will be redacted.
wouldn't all mean no redacting
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:54 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
wouldn't all mean no redacting
No.
You should stop talking about things you don't know about.
As I said before, that leaves meth, choo-choo trains, and receiving anal poundings as potential topics for you.
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:56 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
No.
You should stop talking about things you don't know about.
As I said before, that leaves meth, choo-choo trains, and receiving anal poundings as potential topics for you.
The one that squats when he takes a piss is accusing me of gay butt sex.
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:14 AM   #50
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
So...pleading the Fifth constitutes an admission of wrongdoing? That's in part what the Fifth was designed to protect against.
To my knowledge, Lois Lerner hasn't been actually charged with a crime.

How exactly does the Fifth Amendment actually apply in this case?
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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Old 05-09-2014, 03:14 AM   #51
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The Fifth Amendment protects individuals from being forced to incriminate themselves. Incriminating oneself is defined as exposing oneself (or another person) to "an accusation or charge of crime," or as involving oneself (or another person) "in a criminal prosecution or the danger thereof."[33] The privilege against compelled self-incrimination is defined as "the constitutional right of a person to refuse to answer questions or otherwise give testimony against himself or herself. ... "[34] To "plead the Fifth" is to refuse to answer any question because "the implications of the question, in the setting in which it is asked" lead a claimant to possess a "reasonable cause to apprehend danger from a direct answer", believing that "a responsive answer to the question or an explanation of why it cannot be answered might be dangerous because injurious disclosure could result."[35]

...

The Fifth Amendment privilege against compulsory self-incrimination applies when an individual is called to testify in a legal proceeding.[40] The Supreme Court ruled that the privilege applies whether the witness is in a federal court or, under the incorporation doctrine of the Fourteenth Amendment, in a state court,[41] and whether the proceeding itself is criminal or civil.[42]

The right to remain silent was asserted at grand jury or congressional hearings in the 1950s, when witnesses testifying before the House Committee on Un-American Activities or the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee claimed the right in response to questions concerning their alleged membership in the Communist Party. Under the Red Scare hysteria at the time of McCarthyism, witnesses who refused to answer the questions were accused as "fifth amendment communists". They lost jobs or positions in unions and other political organizations, and suffered other repercussions after "taking the Fifth."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth...s_Constitution

In Taco's world, we don't have a right to remain silent until we've been formally charged with a crime. Game changer!

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Old 05-09-2014, 09:35 AM   #52
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
To my knowledge, Lois Lerner hasn't been actually charged with a crime.

How exactly does the Fifth Amendment actually apply in this case?
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

errr...because if the Fifth Amendment only applied once you were charged with a crime, it would have no value whatsoever?
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:50 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
errr...because if the Fifth Amendment only applied once you were charged with a crime, it would have no value whatsoever?
I can't possibly see how that's the case. Not being required to testify against yourself is a pretty big deal once you've been charged with a crime.

But to your point, not having to testify against yourself before you've been charged with a crime is a pretty nice protection to. But with that said, I don't see how you can dismiss the part about "crime" here. She's clearly indicating that she believes what she did could be construed as criminal.
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:55 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
I can't possibly see how that's the case. Not being required to testify against yourself is a pretty big deal once you've been charged with a crime.

But to your point, not having to testify against yourself before you've been charged with a crime is a pretty nice protection to. But with that said, I don't see how you can dismiss the part about "crime" here. She's clearly indicating that she believes what she did could be construed as criminal.
Yes, but just because it can be construed as criminal doesn't mean it always is. In this case, she's obviously guilty as sin, but in general it doesn't have to be so.
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Old 05-09-2014, 02:53 PM   #55
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Yes, but just because it can be construed as criminal doesn't mean it always is. In this case, she's obviously guilty as sin, but in general it doesn't have to be so.
Probably not. I'm having a hard time thinking in this instance how it couldn't be the case though. I mean, they're asking procedural questions about how the government is run, and she's saying "I can't answer that because it could implicate me in a crime."

She's, of course, innocent until proven guilty, but her actions here basically show that further investigation into this matter is well merited.
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Old 05-09-2014, 03:03 PM   #56
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Probably not. I'm having a hard time thinking in this instance how it couldn't be the case though. I mean, they're asking procedural questions about how the government is run, and she's saying "I can't answer that because it could implicate me in a crime."

She's, of course, innocent until proven guilty, but her actions here basically show that further investigation into this matter is well merited.
She's not quite exactly saying that, but you generally can't start answering questions then later invoke the 5th. As you can see, the Rs are trying to argue that she waived invoking the 5th without even answering questions.
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Old 05-09-2014, 04:20 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Probably not. I'm having a hard time thinking in this instance how it couldn't be the case though. I mean, they're asking procedural questions about how the government is run, and she's saying "I can't answer that because it could implicate me in a crime."

She's, of course, innocent until proven guilty, but her actions here basically show that further investigation into this matter is well merited.
The reason she has to answer even procedural questions that way is because of the waiver issue. If she starts answering questions, it will be clear (according to the weird rules we have established through many years of precedent) that she's waived her right to invoke the 5th. I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense, but that's the way the system works, for better or for worse.

IMO, people should be able to answer what they want to answer and invoke the 5th at any time they decide they're uncomfortable with a question, but unfortunately, that's now how it works.
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:02 AM   #58
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:25 AM   #59
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Devestating
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:29 AM   #60
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I was cracking up over the math statement. obviously the dumb **** aint capable of knowing 25% from 68% or 1%. yet she was running the IRS
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