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Old 05-10-2014, 12:03 PM  
Count Zarth Count Zarth is offline
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Should the minimum wage be raised to $20/hr?

Seems like that would provided everyone with a comfortable living.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/public...e1-2012-03.pdf

Quote:
Using wages as a benchmark, in 1968 the federal minimum stood at 53 percent of the average production worker earnings. During much of the
1960s, the minimum wage was close to 50 percent of the same wage
benchmark. If the minimum wage were at 50 percent of the production
worker wage in 2012 (again, using CBO projections to produce a full-year
2012 estimate), the federal minimum would be $10.01 per hour.

A final benchmark for the minimum wage is productivity growth. Figure
2 below compares growth in average labor productivity with the real
value of the minimum wage between the late 1940s and the end of the
last decade. Between the end of World War II and 1968, the minimum
wage tracked average productivity growth fairly closely.

Since 1968, however, productivity growth has far outpaced the minimum wage. If the minimum wage had continued to move with average productivity after 1968, it would have reached $21.72 per hour in 2012 – a rate well above the average production worker wage. If minimum-wage workers received only half of the productivity gains over the period, the federal minimum would be $15.34. Even if the minimum wage only grew at one-fourth the rate of productivity, in 2012 it would be set at $12.25.
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Old 05-14-2014, 10:11 AM   #76
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:01 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
lol... opps, linked the same article twice. Didn't even notice.

One, second. Here is the other article I meant to link. Not distortion, just a forgetting to copy the second link and pasted in the old one instead.

Don't Blame Robots For Declining Wages -- Blame Dissolving Unions

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/do...solving-unions

And here is another one.

The wedges between productivity and median compensation growth



http://www.epi.org/publication/ib330...-compensation/


Also, if you are going to attempt to throw an article under the bus, give specific examples of why, with maybe a rebuttal to what is said. Simple saying you think it sucks isn't a rebuttal. If it truely deserves an F, you should have no problem breaking the article down and showing why it does.

I'll wait.
Uh, lone, read english much? I very clearly stated why it sucked: BAD WRITING. Do you really expect me to re write their conclusion in clear prose without their pompous academic stick rammed up their collective ass?

While my objection was based solely on F level writing skill, there's one big honking obvious problem with their reasoning: their presumption that wages should correlate with productivity.

That's false. Wages depend on the quantity of labor available. Let's suppose ditch diggers start using weight machines to develop their strength. Let's suppose they increase average output by 40%. If, however, the number of necessary ditch diggers demanded by the economy declines by 300%, the wages of ditch diggers will likely decline despite productivity gains among workers in the field.

We live in an era of multiple transformative innovations that have vastly reduced the transaction costs related to managing foreign labor pools. That has put the $20/hr American worker in direct competition with $3/hr Filipino workers.

Your and idiot if you can't see that this market shift will create a gap in the historical relationship btw wages and productivity.
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:22 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
Do you really expect me to re write their concludion in a clear manner without their pompous academic stick rammed up their collective ass?
No, not really, but I am interested in what a concludian is. Is that a wood, brass or string instrument?
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:56 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
No, not really, but I am interested in what a concludian is. Is that a wood, brass or string instrument?
Its an instrument made of plastic, silicone, and trace amounts of metal used while surfing the net with a cell phone.
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Old 05-14-2014, 02:12 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
Its an instrument made of plastic, silicone, and trace amounts of metal used while surfing the net with a cell phone.
So it’s a percussion instrument, one you beat with a stick to take out frustrations. Good choice.
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Old 05-14-2014, 05:27 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
Uh, lone, read english much? I very clearly stated why it sucked: BAD WRITING. Do you really expect me to re write their conclusion in clear prose without their pompous academic stick rammed up their collective ass?

While my objection was based solely on F level writing skill, there's one big honking obvious problem with their reasoning: their presumption that wages should correlate with productivity.

That's false. Wages depend on the quantity of labor available. Let's suppose ditch diggers start using weight machines to develop their strength. Let's suppose they increase average output by 40%. If, however, the number of necessary ditch diggers demanded by the economy declines by 300%, the wages of ditch diggers will likely decline despite productivity gains among workers in the field.

We live in an era of multiple transformative innovations that have vastly reduced the transaction costs related to managing foreign labor pools. That has put the $20/hr American worker in direct competition with $3/hr Filipino workers.

Your and idiot if you can't see that this market shift will create a gap in the historical relationship btw wages and productivity.
Writing quality is subjective and is not a valid rebuttal to information. That is why I asked you to get specific. You did not, so I'll continue to wait.

Also, your opinion of bad writing is up for debate when you write this "Your and idiot." I believe you meant "You are an idiot." or perhaps "You're an idiot."


And if you would actually read the links I post, you would see your argument destroyed.

But I'll make it easier for you.

We have BEEN living in a time of great technological innovation since the Industrial revolution began. Technological innovation did not start in 1979.

The time between 1940's and 1980s also saw a great many new technologies that increased worker production. During these times you still saw wages increase along with production.

Also, ALL occupations have technological innovation that have increased productivity. ALL of them. BUT, it is only in certain occupations where we see depressed wages, and these are occupations that lack basic bargaining power and labor protection. Technology cannot explain away wage stagnation when that wage stagnation as only happened for certain occupation, while everyone other occupations that also received technological productivity boasts have not seen wage stagnation.
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Old 05-14-2014, 05:31 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
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Man, you really need to go get that butthurt cream.

If I bother you this much, you may want to walk away from the computer and tell yourself this is only a message forum. Go back to x-box live if you need to calm down.

Or try actually engaging in the conversation.
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Old 05-14-2014, 06:31 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Writing quality is subjective and is not a valid rebuttal to information. That is why I asked you to get specific. You did not, so I'll continue to wait.

Also, your opinion of bad writing is up for debate when you write this "Your and idiot." I believe you meant "You are an idiot." or perhaps "You're an idiot."


And if you would actually read the links I post, you would see your argument destroyed.

But I'll make it easier for you.

We have BEEN living in a time of great technological innovation since the Industrial revolution began. Technological innovation did not start in 1979.

The time between 1940's and 1980s also saw a great many new technologies that increased worker production. During these times you still saw wages increase along with production.

Also, ALL occupations have technological innovation that have increased productivity. ALL of them. BUT, it is only in certain occupations where we see depressed wages, and these are occupations that lack basic bargaining power and labor protection. Technology cannot explain away wage stagnation when that wage stagnation as only happened for certain occupation, while everyone other occupations that also received technological productivity boasts have not seen wage stagnation.
Hello, "your and idiot" was intentional---that's a CP thing.

As for writing, people who can't write worth a crap think "good writing" is subjective. In this case, we have an unnecessary loopy conceptual structure created by multiple prepositional phrases used in the same sentence. A key indicator of shitty writing is using the word "of" multiple times in the same sentence. Good structure, with a unidirectional concept flow, is not only more concise in word usage, but also takes much less time to digest.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass whether you agree with that assessment or not.

Now, I've read your crappy paper. And, you clearly don't understand it. There's a difference between technological innovation and innovation THAT EXPANDS THE LABOR POOL.

That's what we've had the last thirty years---and the difference isn't even comparable to the 50s-80's cohort.

Your moron writers make the presumption that tech innovation only has productivity effects and DOES NOT CHANGE MARKET STRUCTURE.

They do mention "globalization" in one line but do not analyze its impact on the supply of labor. They don't even address my point.

And as for the "support" they give for reduced unionization causing falling wages they don't even set out a causative thesis to link the two, they just say:

"It is hard to see how reestablishing a link between productivity and pay can occur without restoring decent and improved labor standards, restoring the minimum wage to a level corresponding to half the average wage (as it was in the late 1960s), and making real the ability of workers to obtain and practice collective bargaining."

Just because they can't see how linking productivity and pay requires more collective bargaining et al doesn't mean it's not possible, even if we ignore their failure to address changes in effective labor pool size.

Perhaps these authors have a collective IQ lower than a retarded cockroach, hence they couldn't tell you if the sky is blue. Their puffed up prose---probably intentionally crafted to disguise their simple ideas and the logical holes in their argument---makes me suspect the "cockroach IQ" thesis could be true.
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Old 05-14-2014, 06:37 PM   #84
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I gotta post more DC threads.
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Old 05-14-2014, 06:53 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
Hello, "your and idiot" was intentional---that's a CP thing.

As for writing, people who can't write worth a crap think "good writing" is subjective. In this case, we have an unnecessary loopy conceptual structure created by multiple prepositional phrases used in the same sentence. A key indicator of shitty writing is using the word "of" multiple times in the same sentence. Good structure, with a unidirectional concept flow, is not only more concise in word usage, but also takes much less time to digest.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass whether you agree with that assessment or not.

Now, I've read your crappy paper. And, you clearly don't understand it. There's a difference between technological innovation and innovation THAT EXPANDS THE LABOR POOL.

That's what we've had the last thirty years---and the difference isn't even comparable to the 50s-80's cohort.

Your moron writers make the presumption that tech innovation only has productivity effects and DOES NOT CHANGE MARKET STRUCTURE.

They do mention "globalization" in one line but do not analyze its impact on the supply of labor. They don't even address my point.

And as for the "support" they give for reduced unionization causing falling wages they don't even set out a causative thesis to link the two, they just say:

"It is hard to see how reestablishing a link between productivity and pay can occur without restoring decent and improved labor standards, restoring the minimum wage to a level corresponding to half the average wage (as it was in the late 1960s), and making real the ability of workers to obtain and practice collective bargaining."

Just because they can't see how linking productivity and pay requires more collective bargaining et al doesn't mean it's not possible, even if we ignore their failure to address changes in effective labor pool size.

Perhaps these authors have a collective IQ lower than a retarded cockroach, hence they couldn't tell you if the sky is blue. Their puffed up writing---probably intentionally crafted to disguise the simplicity of their ideas and the logical holes in their argument---makes me suspect the "cockroach IQ" thesis could be true.
What is considered good writing is subjective because that it is a matter of opinion. A paper may get an A in one class, but a different teacher would give it a C.

Any technology that increases production changes the market structure, this is not ignored, it is accepted as truth because this has been happening since the industrial revolution; and as the data in these article shows, it is only since 1979 that wages of stagnated in the 20th century. You don't think construction workers getting electric tools in the early 1900's changed the market structure? Do you not think the automobiles changed the market structure? Why was there no wage stagnation?

You also didn't address any of the other points I made considering increased technological production in occupations that haven't seen wage stagnation.

So, maybe get away from attacking the messenger and try the data.
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:03 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Also, your opinion of bad writing is up for debate when you write this "Your and idiot." I believe you meant "You are an idiot." or perhaps "You're an idiot."
CP vernacular, moran.
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:36 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Writing quality is subjective and is not a valid rebuttal to information. That is why I asked you to get specific. You did not, so I'll continue to wait.

Also, your opinion of bad writing is up for debate when you write this "Your and idiot." I believe you meant "You are an idiot." or perhaps "You're an idiot."


And if you would actually read the links I post, you would see your argument destroyed.

But I'll make it easier for you.

We have BEEN living in a time of great technological innovation since the Industrial revolution began. Technological innovation did not start in 1979.

The time between 1940's and 1980s also saw a great many new technologies that increased worker production. During these times you still saw wages increase along with production.

Also, ALL occupations have technological innovation that have increased productivity. ALL of them. BUT, it is only in certain occupations where we see depressed wages, and these are occupations that lack basic bargaining power and labor protection. Technology cannot explain away wage stagnation when that wage stagnation as only happened for certain occupation, while everyone other occupations that also received technological productivity boasts have not seen wage stagnation.
Your and ****ing idiot.
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:47 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Count Zarth View Post


I gotta post more DC threads.
You really do. You have mad trolling skills and this is the place where they can shine.
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:11 PM   #89
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CP vernacular, moran.
Don't be too hard on him. He's a friendless spaz that only posts in DC.
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:12 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Man, you really need to go get that butthurt cream.

If I bother you this much, you may want to walk away from the computer and tell yourself this is only a message forum. Go back to x-box live if you need to calm down.

Or try actually engaging in the conversation.
I'm not bothered at all. I don't know why you think it takes any significant time, effort or emotion to make fun of you.
It's easy because you're a total spaz.
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