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Old 05-22-2014, 10:33 PM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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What's better since the Democrats took power in 2008?

I'll start with the stock market. My investments in big corporations are doing well.

Name your own. Go.
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Old 05-29-2014, 11:15 PM   #211
aturnis aturnis is offline
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I think the lack of displeasure with gas prices under Obama has more to do with the fact that we are used to those prices now, and they have become a fact of everyday life. Whereas with Bush, it was unheard of and at a %400 increase shocking. Not to mention his obvious tires to the oil industry and their tenancy to make money for their constituents. (Oil, war)

Also, at this point, after having accepted the process as a realty of life, I see them as a main driver of innovation in green tech.
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Old 05-30-2014, 07:32 AM   #212
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
You are clueless about real life. So easily misled.

1. Sure, the Dept. of Energy didn't believe that the tubes were intended for centrifuges. That's what is called a minority opinion. The consensus from the intelligence community was that they were and DOE's dissent was included in the intelligence estimate.

2. Those 16 words were based on an assessment shared by British intelligence, not on a forgery. British intelligence stood by their assessment long after that speech and the Brit's Butler Report concluded that Bush's statement was "well founded".
Keep believing those lies, patty.

As for number two, how convenient they would believe the British instead of our own CIA. I wonder why. Oh, yea, the CIA told them it was untrue, but Bush wanted a war, so went with the Lie, knowing rubes like you would believe some stench about the British.

There are 8 other lies in that article as well.

Patty, defending the lies of Bush well after he left office.

Here, don't be lazy... unskew these lies for us as well.

LIE #3: "We believe [Saddam] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." -- Vice President Cheney on March 16, 2003 on "Meet the Press."

FACT: There was and is absolutely zero basis for this statement. CIA reports up through 2002 showed no evidence of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program.

LIE #7: "We have seen intelligence over many months that they have chemical and biological weapons, and that they have dispersed them and that they're weaponized and that, in one case at least, the command and control arrangements have been established." -- President Bush, Feb. 8, 2003, in a national radio address.

FACT: Despite a massive nationwide search by U.S. and British forces, there are no signs, traces or examples of chemical weapons being deployed in the field, or anywhere else during the war.

LIE #9: "We know where [Iraq's WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat." -- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003, in statements to the press.

FACT: Needless to say, no such weapons were found, not to the east, west, south or north, somewhat or otherwise.
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Old 05-30-2014, 07:58 AM   #213
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aturnis View Post
I think the lack of displeasure with gas prices under Obama has more to do with the fact that we are used to those prices now, and they have become a fact of everyday life. Whereas with Bush, it was unheard of and at a %400 increase shocking. Not to mention his obvious tires to the oil industry and their tenancy to make money for their constituents. (Oil, war)

Also, at this point, after having accepted the process as a realty of life, I see them as a main driver of innovation in green tech.
There was no 400% increase under Bush even if you cherry pick the numbers. You're taking cosmo's clown act too seriously.
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Old 05-30-2014, 08:17 AM   #214
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Keep believing those lies, patty.

As for number two, how convenient they would believe the British instead of our own CIA. I wonder why. Oh, yea, the CIA told them it was untrue, but Bush wanted a war, so went with the Lie, knowing rubes like you would believe some stench about the British.
Given the failures of our CIA when it comes to Iraq, not just at the turn of the century, but also a decade before when Saddam invaded Kuwait, it probably wasn't a bad idea to get a second opinion. In any event, Bush clearly attributed that intel to the British and the British determined that Bush's statement was "well founded".

What you don't seem to understand is that there are almost always dissenting opinions when it comes to intelligence analysis and you can't simply point to those dissents after the fact and conclude that lies were told.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
There are 8 other lies in that article as well.

Patty, defending the lies of Bush well after he left office.

Here, don't be lazy... unskew these lies for us as well.

LIE #3: "We believe [Saddam] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." -- Vice President Cheney on March 16, 2003 on "Meet the Press."

FACT: There was and is absolutely zero basis for this statement. CIA reports up through 2002 showed no evidence of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program.
This is false. From the October 2002 NIE:
Quote:
Since inspections ended in 1998, Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort, energized its missile program, and invested more heavily in biological weapons; in the view of most agencies, Baghdad is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
LIE #7: "We have seen intelligence over many months that they have chemical and biological weapons, and that they have dispersed them and that they're weaponized and that, in one case at least, the command and control arrangements have been established." -- President Bush, Feb. 8, 2003, in a national radio address.

FACT: Despite a massive nationwide search by U.S. and British forces, there are no signs, traces or examples of chemical weapons being deployed in the field, or anywhere else during the war.
That's not a lie either. The notorious informant known as Curveball alone was the source of enough of this type of intel to prove that this claim was true. That the intelligence turned out to be wrong doesn't change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
LIE #9: "We know where [Iraq's WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat." -- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003, in statements to the press.

FACT: Needless to say, no such weapons were found, not to the east, west, south or north, somewhat or otherwise.
This is just a dumb one. And even if it were a real lie, which it isn't, it can't possibly be the kind of lie that led us into war because it happened after we'd already invaded.
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Old 05-30-2014, 08:35 AM   #215
suzzer99 suzzer99 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I'm sorry, but they were straight up lies.

Here are just two examples:

LIE #1: "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program ... Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." -- President Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in Cincinnati.

FACT: This story, leaked to and breathlessly reported by Judith Miller in the New York Times, has turned out to be complete baloney. Department of Energy officials, who monitor nuclear plants, say the tubes could not be used for enriching uranium. One intelligence analyst, who was part of the tubes investigation, angrily told The New Republic: "You had senior American officials like Condoleezza Rice saying the only use of this aluminum really is uranium centrifuges. She said that on television. And that's just a lie."

LIE #2: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." -- President Bush, Jan.28, 2003, in the State of the Union address.

FACT: This whopper was based on a document that the White House already knew to be a forgery thanks to the CIA. Sold to Italian intelligence by some hustler, the document carried the signature of an official who had been out of office for 10 years and referenced a constitution that was no longer in effect. The ex-ambassador who the CIA sent to check out the story is pissed: "They knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie," he told the New Republic, anonymously. "They [the White House] were unpersuasive about aluminum tubes and added this to make their case more strongly."


http://www.alternet.org/story/16274/...old_about_iraq


They were lying and knew they were lying.
5000 Americans dead over blatant lies and no one cares. And yet for some reason, a changed talking point after a tragedy that left 4 Americans dead is 100 times more of a scandal.

The power of propaganda.
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:21 AM   #216
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
5000 Americans dead over blatant lies and no one cares. And yet for some reason, a changed talking point after a tragedy that left 4 Americans dead is 100 times more of a scandal.

The power of propaganda.
Speaking of propaganda: "blatant lies" LOL
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:22 AM   #217
New World Order New World Order is offline
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
5000 Americans dead over blatant lies and no one cares. And yet for some reason, a changed talking point after a tragedy that left 4 Americans dead is 100 times more of a scandal.

The power of propaganda.

This! Obama has done a magnificent job regarding foreign policy.
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:28 AM   #218
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is online now
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There was no 400% increase under Bush even if you cherry pick the numbers. You're taking cosmo's clown act too seriously.
It was under $1 at some point under Clinton (down to .$90 I believe) and went over $4 under Bush.
So, that is 400+%

You might be using the famous "Republican math" so I understand how you may have reached a different result.
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:32 AM   #219
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is online now
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
5000 Americans dead over blatant lies and no one cares. And yet for some reason, a changed talking point after a tragedy that left 4 Americans dead is 100 times more of a scandal.

The power of propaganda.
What propaganda?

Say whatever you want but George W. Bush kept us safe since 9/11!
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Old 05-30-2014, 11:10 AM   #220
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
It was under $1 at some point under Clinton (down to .$90 I believe) and went over $4 under Bush.
So, that is 400+%

You might be using the famous "Republican math" so I understand how you may have reached a different result.
Your guy, Obama, is still blaming Bush for most of his own failures over the past 5 years, but Bush has to take responsibility for gas price increases that happened before he was even elected? Very creative nonsense you're slinging right there.
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Old 05-30-2014, 11:43 AM   #221
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is online now
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Your guy, Obama, is still blaming Bush for most of his own failures over the past 5 years, but Bush has to take responsibility for gas price increases that happened before he was even elected? Very creative nonsense you're slinging right there.
Thanks. If there is anyone who would appreciate creative nonsense, I knew it would be you.


Was gas .90 under Clinton? YES
Was gas $4+ under W? YES

pat, these are the kind of arguments you have made into an art. I'm flattered by your jealousy.
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Old 05-30-2014, 12:03 PM   #222
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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I think the gas-price part of this conversation could benefit from some actual, you know, figures.



Notice that during Bush's administration from 2001-2009, gas prices steadily rose, then plunged just before he left office, mostly because of the recession. Many people like to pick just that one point of data and use it against Obama, but as you can see, most of Bush's second term sported very high gas prices, maxing out at about $4.25 (adjusted) per gallon, the highest of any President ever.

Plus, the President isn't really responsible for the price of gasoline anyway. It's determined, more than anything, by the price of oil, something which the President can affect indirectly, at most. If you want to blame somebody for rising gas prices, blame our dependence on oil - but that would mean blaming ourselves, which I suppose is unthinkable.
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