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Old 06-03-2014, 12:13 PM  
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Seattle approves $15 minimum wage

http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/02/news...-minimum-wage/
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:03 PM   #76
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 View Post
What you're not seeing is this is the free market adjusting to attempts to defeat market value with government subsidies (i.e. the social safety net).

When you attempt to transfer money to the lower end of the economic spectrum against the supply and demand curve, the market adjusts.

The same thing happens with such market control attempts as rent-controlled housing. When you artificially suppress the cost of a market good, you end up paying in non-monetary ways such as waiting in line to get the low-priced item, secondary work/costs created by market participants to get the opportunity at purchasing the subidized good ect.

In this case, with an ample supply of low end labor available, they will accept jobs that do not pay a "living wage" as long as the job opens the door to social safety net programs for the working poor.

If you combine the taxation costs plus the wages, I'll bet you'd come close to the fair market value of that labor that you'd have without government attempts to restructure the market.

Of course, none of that means anything to lone, if he can attempt to ram the black hat onto the heads of the evil corporations.

Lone is the kind of guy that thinks you can legislate away the law of gravity. And, when the bowling ball still falls to the floor, he accuses the bowling ball manufacturer of evil.

Now, can you change wealth distribution through law? Sure you can, but you will also need a clear understanding of how economics works rather than trying to tell the sun not to come up tomorrow by statute.
You again rant with zero substance and zero comprehension of the arguments laid out.

You again fail.

I have not mentioned "evil" corporations" nor have I said anything about wealth distribution. The minimum wage isn't about wealth distribution.

The minimum wage is to ensure that the least powerful in our society are not taken advantage off by the powerful in our society in labor contracts.

The minimum wage is saying that if your company wants to earn a profit off of American labor, you have to pay a wage that allows that worker to participate in society.

If a company cannot pay a living wage and churn a profit, that company will require government assistance, either to the employee or the company.

Why do you support unsustainable companies?
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:12 PM   #77
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Seriously, you need to know what kind of skill set is involved with someone making minimum wage. I can't even imagine any 40 year old so devoid of work ethic that they cannot find a job that pays more than $8 an hour. They almost have to be disabled or purposefully trying not to do anything for them to be in that situation

A 40 year old thinking that they should be able to live comfortably with a minimum wage deserves to be scorned IMO. Seriously. Grow up.
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:16 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
No, I don't see a pattern, because taxes haven't gone up.

And gosh golly gee, lets just make the darn minimum wage a livable level and then tie to inflation.
Honestly it sounds like you have little to no experience behind the scenes in the private sector. You sound, to me, like a stuck up know it all college brat spouting theoretical idealism with no real ground to reality. I don't know what else to say.

Ad hominem aside Taxes HAVE changed, and ignorant people don't even understand how higher paid employees create higher taxes for the business. Meanwhile things like gas has tripled since 2000 and that impacts shipping costs astronomically. Smaller businesses are struggling and a bozo might think "hey, they can get by paying everyone 20 bucks an hour!".

Yanno who that favors? Big evil corporations who have most of the money but the minority of the current work force. I mean what exactly do you think you're advocating and who the hell do you think benefits? Most employers are not billionaire CEO's in the real world.

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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Honestly, this shouldn't even be a discussion. If a company cannot pay a living wage and churn a profit, the company is unsustainable and will require government help, either to the company or employee.

Lets stop propping up unsustainable companies.
Yes, that's great, but your tunnel vision is not allowing you to see the greater picture. In your magic world where 'unsustainable companies' are destroyed and 'the best' survive is not going to make you happy. Wal Mart won't disappear. They'll just become MORE powerful. You'll put so many smaller businesses out commission that the big dogs will just feast on them. What happens when the big dogs fail?

OH that's right... they're declared 'too big to fail' and given a huge free pass and a bunch of government money.

Look man, I agree the disparity in pay is a problem, but you and I have wholly different ideas about the cause and potential solutions to it. To me what you suggest is like putting a band aid on a brain tumor.


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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Let's stop socializing the losses, privatizing the profits.
I'll counter your cliche (which I agree with... down with bail outs for giant billion dollar corporations) with an analogy:

You can't cure a disease by treating a symptom.
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:16 PM   #79
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Bottom line for Seattle is jobs will go away, Seattleites lose jobs. Liberals with jobs feel super about themselves. People of the State of washington will end up sucking hind tit
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:28 PM   #80
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:31 PM   #81
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Honestly it sounds like you have little to no experience behind the scenes in the private sector. You sound, to me, like a stuck up know it all college brat spouting theoretical idealism with no real ground to reality. I don't know what else to say.
Okay, instead of evidence, or data, or logic.. name calling... got it. Really shows your the adult here. But continue....


Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Ad hominem aside Taxes HAVE changed, and ignorant people don't even understand how higher paid employees create higher taxes for the business. Meanwhile things like gas has tripled since 2000 and that impacts shipping costs astronomically. Smaller businesses are struggling and a bozo might think "hey, they can get by paying everyone 20 bucks an hour!".
Outside of the fact your argument here seems to be "Things are expensive, so we can't pay employees, " the majority of companies that pay the minimum wage are not small businesses.

Quote:
An analysis of Census Bureau data finds that roughly two thirds (66 percent) of low-wage workers are employed by large companies with over 100 employees, not small businesses
http://nelp.3cdn.net/e555b2e361f8f734f4_sim6btdzo.pdf

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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Yanno who that favors? Big evil corporations who have most of the money but the minority of the current work force. I mean what exactly do you think you're advocating and who the hell do you think benefits? Most employers are not billionaire CEO's in the real world.
I think I'm advocating for America, where an honest days work meant an honest days pay. Not go work for this company and earn so little the government has to step in and provide you benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Yes, that's great, but your tunnel vision is not allowing you to see the greater picture. In your magic world where 'unsustainable companies' are destroyed and 'the best' survive is not going to make you happy. Wal Mart won't disappear. They'll just become MORE powerful. You'll put so many smaller businesses out commission that the big dogs will just feast on them. What happens when the big dogs fail?

OH that's right... they're declared 'too big to fail' and given a huge free pass and a bunch of government money.
Well, I already addressed the myth that this will mainly impact small businesses.

But, what do I think will happen? The country will save money in taxes and demand for goods and services will increase. Increases in demand lead to job creation.

Or the basics of capitalism.

I don't think any company will be destroyed, because they can afford to pay more, just choose not too. They can get away with it because workers lack basic bargaining rights and protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Look man, I agree the disparity in pay is a problem, but you and I have wholly different ideas about the cause and potential solutions to it. To me what you suggest is like putting a band aid on a brain tumor.


I'll counter your cliche (which I agree with... down with bail outs for giant billion dollar corporations) with an analogy:

You can't cure a disease by treating a symptom.
This isn't mainly about disparity of pay. It is also about the basic work contract we established in America that 40 hours of work got you a seat at the table in America.

Now, 40 hours of work gets you on the food stamp list, with school lunches and whole host of other benefits.

I can think of one other way for employees to, at the very least, know their 40 hours of work will earn them enough to stay off the social saftey net... collective bargaining, workmen councils, and unions.

A union wouldn't let their workers earn so little the need to turn to the government.
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:33 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Bottom line for Seattle is jobs will go away, Seattleites lose jobs. Liberals with jobs feel super about themselves. People of the State of washington will end up sucking hind tit
Why would jobs go away?

Did demand for goods and services disappear?

No.
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:36 PM   #83
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Why would jobs go away?

Did demand for goods and services disappear?

No.
Some Jobs will move where the minimum wage is not $15. Jobs can move. And those that cannot move may be replaced with technology. Or they will be eliminated and the work spread to other workers.. and a few people who are lucky will get a raise and we shall all celebrate for them!!
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:37 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
http://www.epi.org/publication/wage-...rkers-benefit/

Hmm, let's see.. 35 percent over 40 (not meaning retired, but retires can't be over 35 percent) and only 12 percent under the age of 20... lets do some math... That would mean less than 47 percent of minimum wage employees COULD be considered a teenager or retired person.

Well, that doesn't seem like most minimum wage workers.

Care to try again?


That's your source?


Economic Policy Institute

Non-profit

The Economic Policy Institute is a 501 non-profit American think tank based in Washington, D.C. EPI presents a liberal viewpoint on economic issues. EPI has a sister organization, the EPI Policy Center, which is a 501 organization. Wikipedia

This tends to refute your (their) claims: http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2013.pdf

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Old 06-03-2014, 06:39 PM   #85
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:49 PM   #86
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:50 PM   #87
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There is an awful lot of derp in this thread.

I see you guys have the bases covered:

Zomg prices will go up.

Zomg bussinesses will hire less.

Zomg, only teenagers work minimum wage jobs.

Meanwhile, in reality....

Demand sets prices, not wages.
Demand creates or destroys jobs, not wages,
and the average age of a minimum wage employee is something like 32.
The
This conservative idea that a job shouldn't provide you with the means to afford food and shelter is perverse.
And you my friend have a lot of illusion in these threads . The cold hard facts will shatter your wishful thinking. Dream on bro~
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:55 PM   #88
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Okay, instead of evidence, or data, or logic.. name calling... got it. Really shows your the adult here. But continue....




Outside of the fact your argument here seems to be "Things are expensive, so we can't pay employees, " the majority of companies that pay the minimum wage are not small businesses.



http://nelp.3cdn.net/e555b2e361f8f734f4_sim6btdzo.pdf
Do you realize there is an area between the current minimum wage and whatever it is you propose as a federally mandated minimum wage? This impacts more than you seem to perceive. I'm talking about your proposed solution, not the problem. I understand the problem... mostly. I can't pretend to know everything like some folks.



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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I think I'm advocating for America, where an honest days work meant an honest days pay. Not go work for this company and earn so little the government has to step in and provide you benefits.
What is an honest day's pay in your opinion? I must ask because such a thing is subjective ,and not objective as your phrasing indicates.



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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Well, I already addressed the myth that this will mainly impact small businesses.
If you were to do something drastic, such as suddenly raise minimum wage to 15 or 20 dollars in the market I live in, you would break small businesses without question. To survive they would have to restructure with less employees. Is that 'problem solved' in your book? Higher pay, and much higher unemployment?

I think your heart is in the right place, but if everything you want happens it will not work out the way you want it to.

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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
But, what do I think will happen? The country will save money in taxes and demand for goods and services will increase. Increases in demand lead to job creation.

Or the basics of capitalism.
Companies will pay much higher taxes. I will ask you ONE MORE TIME... do you understand, at all, the process in which companies pay taxes for their employees? If not, then just say so. You have avoided this question, and I think it's because the answer is simply 'no.' That doesn't marginalize your opinion, but it's very clear there are things you don't understand about how that all operates. What do you know about employment laws and taxes on the business side?

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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I don't think any company will be destroyed, because they can afford to pay more, just choose not too. They can get away with it because workers lack basic bargaining rights and protection.
You keep ignoring this margin... as if you think people either make 8 bucks an hour or 20 million per day. I don't know what kind of money you guys want. 15 bucks an hour? Not sustainable in my market... maybe sustainable in some. 20 bucks an hour? GTFO. The only companies that could afford to pay that to all employees would be huge companies... and if they fail your party would just throw money at them because they're 'too big to fail'. The first to fall would be those with the least money to absorb the hike.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
This isn't mainly about disparity of pay. It is also about the basic work contract we established in America that 40 hours of work got you a seat at the table in America.

Now, 40 hours of work gets you on the food stamp list, with school lunches and whole host of other benefits.

I can think of one other way for employees to, at the very least, know their 40 hours of work will earn them enough to stay off the social saftey net... collective bargaining, workmen councils, and unions.

A union wouldn't let their workers earn so little the need to turn to the government.
No.. unions just ask for more and more and more until the companies move projects or lay off hundreds to compensate. Unions serve a great purpose and they are needed, but I've seen them bite off the hand that feeds more than once in the 'air capital' of doo-dah kansas. Well compensated employees that are shafted by greed. Sure.. SOME of them make out with the new and awesome union benefits. The rest have to find new jobs.

Again, I feel your heart is in the right place but I don't share your idea that solving such an issue is just as simple as imposing a federal minimum wage of (undisclosed). I find that myopic.

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Old 06-03-2014, 07:54 PM   #89
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And you my friend have a lot of illusion in these threads . The cold hard facts will shatter your wishful thinking. Dream on bro~
You mean the cold hard facts of over 100 years of a minimum wage, with increase, and none of the doom and gloom has happened?
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:56 PM   #90
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It's a goddamn brutal cycle.

Do you run a business? I'm not being a smart ass... but running a business is expensive. The government always wants their huge ass chunk of everything. The average person (and especially college kids) have no ****ing clue how much the government is in your pocket running a business. Then we can't give the raises to keep up with inflation, and the people have to rely on a safety net. That safety net comes from where? MORE TAXES. Business gets more expensive...... ect...

I run a small business. Well said.

Would $15/hour kill us? Probably not. We don't start at minimum wage, but what we start at would be less than acceptable to Lone.

$15/hour is way more than a living wage in a small Kansas city like mine. Likely, we would do what we did the last time. We raised everyone's wages and as employees left for various things - moving/better job/etc. we discovered that we could get done with 20-25 employees what we did with 30-35.
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