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Old 06-03-2014, 01:13 PM  
petegz28 petegz28 is online now
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Seattle approves $15 minimum wage

http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/02/news...-minimum-wage/
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:10 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Graystoke View Post
Ultimately the consumer will pay, not the CEO's. I wish it was the other way around.
The consumer has the option to not support the inflated prices, but instead purchase from the company that is more reasonable in price and takes a hit to the millions/billions in profits to pay a live-able wage
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:12 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
There is an awful lot of derp in this thread.

I see you guys have the bases covered:

Zomg prices will go up.

Zomg bussinesses will hire less.

Zomg, only teenagers work minimum wage jobs.

Meanwhile, in reality....

Demand sets prices, not wages.
Demand creates or destroys jobs, not wages,
and the average age of a minimum wage employee is something like 32.

This conservative idea that a job shouldn't provide you with the means to afford food and shelter is perverse.
Yet, this isn't allowing w allow demand to set the price--it's govt decree. You don't want demand to set the price. You want a govt decree to do it.

Hence you're contradicting yourself.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:16 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Do you realize there is an area between the current minimum wage and whatever it is you propose as a federally mandated minimum wage? This impacts more than you seem to perceive. I'm talking about your proposed solution, not the problem. I understand the problem... mostly. I can't pretend to know everything like some folks.


What is an honest day's pay in your opinion? I must ask because such a thing is subjective ,and not objective as your phrasing indicates.
How about being able to afford food and housing without government assistance?

Being above the federal poverty line?

How dare companies be expected to pay their employees enough to feed themselves, eh?

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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
If you were to do something drastic, such as suddenly raise minimum wage to 15 or 20 dollars in the market I live in, you would break small businesses without question. To survive they would have to restructure with less employees. Is that 'problem solved' in your book? Higher pay, and much higher unemployment?

I think your heart is in the right place, but if everything you want happens it will not work out the way you want it to.
Your assuming, without evidence, that it leads to higher unemployment.

But higher wages lead to increases in demand, which lead to job growth.

Quote:
An analysis by the Economic Policy Institute shows that the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2013, which would raise the federal minimum wage to $10.10 per hour and index it to inflation, would generate more than $30 billion in new economic activity and support the creation of 140,000 new full-time jobs as businesses expand to meet increased consumer demand.
http://www.epi.org/files/2013/bp357-...e-increase.pdf

Remember, the most important part of the equation in capitalism is demand, not supply. I know this is a hard concept for some, but DEMAND drives the economy. Demand is what drives job growth.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Companies will pay much higher taxes. I will ask you ONE MORE TIME... do you understand, at all, the process in which companies pay taxes for their employees? If not, then just say so. You have avoided this question, and I think it's because the answer is simply 'no.' That doesn't marginalize your opinion, but it's very clear there are things you don't understand about how that all operates. What do you know about employment laws and taxes on the business side?
Again, since you ignored it last time, the argument that "omg it will cost more", even if that means in taxes, is not a valid argument to keep employees underpaid and on the federal safety net.

The burden of paying employees for their labor should fall on the employer and the customer. Not the taxpayer.

Duh, pay goes up costs go up. It is not a valid rebuttal.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
You keep ignoring this margin... as if you think people either make 8 bucks an hour or 20 million per day. I don't know what kind of money you guys want. 15 bucks an hour? Not sustainable in my market... maybe sustainable in some. 20 bucks an hour? GTFO. The only companies that could afford to pay that to all employees would be huge companies... and if they fail your party would just throw money at them because they're 'too big to fail'. The first to fall would be those with the least money to absorb the hike.
This is where you show you have no idea what the current debate is towards the minimum wage. The current federal proposal is for around 10.10.

That would place it close previous, 1960's levels, adjusted for inflation.

You do know that the minimum wage has not increased along side inflation, right?

Also, if a company cannot pay a living wage and survive, who the freak cares. You know what capitalism says... they will be replaced by someone who can. You know why? Because people looking to make a profit will find a way to meet demand. If Wal-Mart fails, they will be replaced by someone else who can deliver goods at a market price will paying the minimum wage.

But chances are, no company will fail, because a wage floor shouldn't put a company out of business. Unless it was a unsustainable company to began with.

Do you support propping up unsustainable companies through the social safety net?

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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
No.. unions just ask for more and more and more until the companies move projects or lay off hundreds to compensate. Unions serve a great purpose and they are needed, but I've seen them bite off the hand that feeds more than once in the 'air capital' of doo-dah kansas. Well compensated employees that are shafted by greed. Sure.. SOME of them make out with the new and awesome union benefits. The rest have to find new jobs.

Again, I feel your heart is in the right place but I don't share your idea that solving such an issue is just as simple as imposing a federal minimum wage of (undisclosed). I find that myopic.
So you have no idea what unions do outside the negative stereotypes. Typical.

Do yourself a favor and research German worker councils. Newsflash, more than a few countries have them.

Here, I'll even make it easy on you.

Quick hint, America lags behind in basic worker compensation, protections, and rights... largely thanks to posts like the one you just put up.

But hey, keep fighting to keep your standard of living low. That's your right. Just understand your screwing yourself.

http://www.squiresanders.com/files/E...s_Councils.pdf
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:19 PM   #94
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Seriously, you need to know what kind of skill set is involved with someone making minimum wage. I can't even imagine any 40 year old so devoid of work ethic that they cannot find a job that pays more than $8 an hour. They almost have to be disabled or purposefully trying not to do anything for them to be in that situation

A 40 year old thinking that they should be able to live comfortably with a minimum wage deserves to be scorned IMO. Seriously. Grow up.
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Let me tell you the story of an “unskilled” worker in America who lived better than most of today’s college graduates. In the winter of 1965, Rob Stanley graduated from Chicago Vocational High School, on the city’s Far South Side. Pay rent, his father told him, or get out of the house. So Stanley walked over to Interlake Steel, where he was immediately hired to shovel taconite into the blast furnace on the midnight shift. It was the crummiest job in the mill, mindless grunt work, but it paid $2.32 an hour — enough for an apartment and a car. That was enough for Stanley, whose main ambition was playing football with the local sandlot all-stars, the Bonivirs.

Stanley’s wages would be the equivalent of $17.17 today — more than the “Fight For 15” movement is demanding for fast-food workers. Stanley’s job was more difficult, more dangerous and more unpleasant than working the fryer at KFC (the blast furnace could heat up to 2,000 degrees). According to the laws of the free market, though, none of that is supposed to matter. All that is supposed to matter is how many people are capable of doing your job. And anyone with two arms could shovel taconite. It required even less skill than preparing dozens of finger lickin’ good menu items, or keeping straight the orders of 10 customers waiting at the counter. Shovelers didn’t need to speak English. In the early days of the steel industry, the job was often assigned to immigrants off the boat from Poland or Bohemia.

“You’d just sort of go on automatic pilot, shoveling ore balls all night,” is how Stanley remembers the work.

Stanley’s ore-shoveling gig was also considered an entry-level position. After a year in Vietnam, he came home to Chicago and enrolled in a pipefitters’ apprenticeship program at Wisconsin Steel.

So why did Rob Stanley, an unskilled high school graduate, live so much better than someone with similar qualifications could even dream of today? Because the workers at Interlake Steel were represented by the United Steelworkers of America, who demanded a decent salary for all jobs. The workers at KFC are represented by nobody but themselves, so they have to accept a wage a few cents above what Congress has decided is criminal.The argument given against paying a living wage in fast-food restaurants is that workers are paid according to their skills, and if the teenager cleaning the grease trap wants more money, he should get an education. [b]Like most conservative arguments, it makes sense logically, but has little connection to economic reality[b/]. Workers are not simply paid according to their skills, they’re paid according to what they can negotiate with their employers. And in an era when only 6 percent of private-sector workers belong to a union, and when going on strike is almost certain to result in losing your job, low-skill workers have no negotiating power whatsoever.

Granted, Interlake Steel produced a much more useful, much more profitable product than KFC. Steel built the Brooklyn Bridge, the U.S. Navy and the Saturn rocket program. KFC spares people the hassle of frying chicken at home. So let’s look at how wages have declined from middle-class to minimum-wage in a single industry: meat processing.

Slaughterhouses insist they hire immigrants because the work is so unpleasant Americans won’t do it. They hired European immigrants when Upton Sinclair wrote “The Jungle,” and they hire Latin American immigrants today. But it’s a canard that Americans won’t slaughter pigs, sheep and cows. How do we know this? Because immigration to the United States was more or less banned from 1925 to 1965, and millions of pigs, sheep and cows were slaughtered during those years. But they were slaughtered by American-born workers, earning middle-class wages. Mother Jones magazine explains what changed:

“[S]tarting in the early 1960s, a company called Iowa Beef Packers (IBP) began to revolutionize the industry, opening plants in rural areas far from union strongholds, recruiting immigrant workers from Mexico, introducing a new division of labor that eliminated the need for skilled butchers, and ruthlessly battling unions. By the late 1970s, meatpacking companies that wanted to compete with IBP had to adopt its business methods — or go out of business. Wages in the meatpacking industry soon fell by as much as 50 percent.”

In Nick Reding’s book “Methland,” he interviews Roland Jarvis, who earned $18 an hour throwing hocks at Iowa Ham…until 1992, when the slaughterhouse was bought out by a company that broke the union, cut wages to $6.20 an hour, and eliminated all benefits. Jarvis began taking meth so he could work extra shifts, then dealing the drug to make up for his lost income.

Would Americans kill pigs for $18 an hour? Hell, yes, they would. There would be a line from Sioux City to Dubuque for those jobs. But Big Meat’s defeat of Big Labor means it can now negotiate the lowest possible wages with the most desperate workers: usually Mexican immigrants who are willing to endure dangerous conditions for what would be considered a huge pile of money in their home country. Slaughterhouses hire immigrants not because they’re the only workers willing to kill and cut apart pigs, but because they’re the only workers willing to kill and cut apart pigs for low wages, in unsafe conditions.

In Rob Stanley’s native South Side, there is more than one monument to the violence that resulted when the right of industry to bargain without the interference of labor unions was backed up by government force. In 1894, President Cleveland sent 2,500 troops to break a strike at the Pullman Palace Car Factory. On Memorial Day, 1937, Chicago police killed 10 striking workers outside the Republic Steel plant. The names of those dead are cast on a brass plaque bolted to a flagpole outside a defunct steelworkers’ hall. They were as polyglot as a platoon in a World War II movie: Anderson, Causey, Francisco, Popovich, Handley, Jones, Reed, Tagliori, Tisdale, Rothmund.

I first saw those sites on a labor history tour led by “Oil Can Eddie” Sadlowski, a retired labor leader who lost a race for the presidency of the USW in 1977. Sadlowski was teaching a group of ironworkers’ apprentices about their blue-collar heritage, and invited me to ride along on the bus. Oil Can Eddie had spent his life agitating for a labor movement that transcended class boundaries. He wanted laborers to think of themselves as poets, and poets to think of themselves as laborers.

“How many Mozarts are working in steel mills?” he once asked an interviewer.

In the parking lot of the ironworkers’ hall, I noticed that most of the apprentices were driving brand-new pickup trucks — Dodge Rams with swollen hoods and quarter panels, a young man’s first purchase with jackpot union wages. Meanwhile, I knew college graduates who earned $9.50 an hour as editorial assistants, or worked in bookstores for even less. None seemed interested in forming a union. So I asked Sadlowski why white-collar workers had never embraced the labor movement as avidly as blue-collar workers.
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http://www.salon.com/2013/12/30/the_..._so_low_today/
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Last edited by DenverChief; 06-03-2014 at 09:39 PM..
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:20 PM   #95
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by DenverChief View Post
The consumer has the option to not support the inflated prices, but instead purchase from the company that is more reasonable in price and takes a hit to the millions/billions in profits to pay a live-able wage
You mean demand sets prices?

And that by raising prices, you decrease demand for your goods, giving your competitor the ability to take your business? And that could more than make up for any wage increase?

What is this capitalism you speak of?
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:20 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by DenverChief View Post
The consumer has the option to not support the inflated prices, but instead purchase from the company that is more reasonable in price and takes a hit to the millions/billions in profits to pay a live-able wage
Oh, the consumer will pay. It might not be monetary. Smaller quantity, lesser quality, decreased store hours, decreased service, longer wait time, etc.


I am not sure why you and Lone are pretending that costs don't exist. If what you were saying was true then we could sell a whole bunch of yachts for say $100 bucks a pop.

Everybody knows that is silly as the company that sells yachts at a $100 bucks a pop would go out of business as they are loosing money on each yacht sold.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:20 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Yet, this isn't allowing w allow demand to set the price--it's govt decree. You don't want demand to set the price. You want a govt decree to do it.

Hence you're contradicting yourself.
A wage floor isn't setting a price.

Be less stupid.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:22 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You mean demand sets prices?

And that by raising prices, you decrease demand for your goods, giving your competitor the ability to take your business? And that could more than make up for any wage increase?

What is this capitalism you speak of?
Costs to produce/provide don't exist!!!! All that labor, raw materials, transportation, marketing, and other costs to run a business are just made up numbers!
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:23 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Oh, the consumer will pay. It might not be monetary. Smaller quantity, lesser quality, decreased store hours, decreased service, longer wait time, etc.


I am not sure why you and Lone are pretending that costs don't exist. If what you were saying was true then we could sell a whole bunch of yachts for say $100 bucks a pop.

Everybody knows that is silly as the company that sells yachts at a $100 bucks a pop would go out of business as they are loosing money on each yacht sold.
Wow, do you have no idea what "demand sets the price" means.

And no one is pretending costs don't exist.

We just aren't pretending that a livable wage is a cost that companies can't overcome. And your analogy doesn't even make sense. But Yachts cost what the do because the market has shown that people will pay that price for them.

Or do you think 100 dollar golf club actually cost 100 dollars to make?
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:23 PM   #100
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Costs to produce/provide don't exist!!!! All that labor, raw materials, transportation, marketing, and other costs to run a business are just made up numbers!
You really have no idea what "demand sets the price" means, do you?
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:28 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Oh, the consumer will pay. It might not be monetary. Smaller quantity, lesser quality, decreased store hours, decreased service, longer wait time, etc.


I am not sure why you and Lone are pretending that costs don't exist. If what you were saying was true then we could sell a whole bunch of yachts for say $100 bucks a pop.

Everybody knows that is silly as the company that sells yachts at a $100 bucks a pop would go out of business as they are loosing money on each yacht sold.

thats a bit of an absurd example - I think that maybe selling a $80,000 yacht for $90,000 and selling ten to 1 of your competitor who sells them at $110,000 is a more reasonable example.

or a $2.50 loaf of bread for $3.50 instead of $5.50
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:30 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You really have no idea what "demand sets the price" means, do you?

Explain it to me in a small business aspect.

Just as an example....

A small business has $5,000 in employee cost per month paying $7.25/hour or whatever minimum wage is now. With a new $15.00/hour minimum wage, those employee costs go up to, let's say to $10,000 a month. Where does that extra $5,000 come from in a small business?
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:33 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You really have no idea what "demand sets the price" means, do you?
You have no idea that demand also set wages. If there are a flood of people willing to work for minimum wage, that is the market value for that job. If there are less people available to work for minimum wage then the wage goes up!

IIRC back in the early to mid 80's they were importing from WYCO and Jackson County workers and paying a bit more in Fast Food restaurants in Johnson County because they couldn't get anybody to work.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:33 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Mr. Plow View Post
Explain it to me in a small business aspect.

Just as an example....

A small business has $5,000 in employee cost per month paying $7.25/hour or whatever minimum wage is now. With a new $15.00/hour minimum wage, those employee costs go up to, let's say to $10,000 a month. Where does that extra $5,000 come from in a small business?
You need to increase demand. Problem solved.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:35 PM   #105
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Wow, do you have no idea what "demand sets the price" means.
Yes, I do. Do you understand that there is infinite demand at the price of free? Do you understand if you lose money making a product that you go out of business? Do you understand that there are others way to defray cost that are not monetary?

Quote:
And no one is pretending costs don't exist.
You certainly are. Not only will labor price go up but the taxes that businesses have to pay to employee people will go up as well. It is a higher cost to the business then what you are pretending it will be. It will also hurt the remaining workers. They will get a higher work load, hours will be slashed, and any benefits will soon be slashed as well. Most of the businesses that employ minimum wage employees don't have huge profit margins.

Quote:
We just aren't pretending that a livable wage is a cost that companies can't overcome. And your analogy doesn't even make sense. But Yachts cost what the do because the market has shown that people will pay that price for them.
Yachts cost that much because it takes a lot of money to make one. No one would make any money selling yachts for $100. Though I bet the demand for a yacht that costs $100 is pretty high. Wonder why it hasn't set that price?

Quote:
Or do you think 100 dollar golf club actually cost 100 dollars to make?
No, I expect that it costs probably 30-40 to make. I expect when all costs are factored in that the company is probably making 10-20 dollars per golf club.
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