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Old 06-03-2014, 01:13 PM  
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Seattle approves $15 minimum wage

http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/02/news...-minimum-wage/
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:40 PM   #106
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Just for posterity sake - it's a great article on the subject
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:40 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Mr. Plow View Post
Explain it to me in a small business aspect.

Just as an example....

A small business has $5,000 in employee cost per month paying $7.25/hour or whatever minimum wage is now. With a new $15.00/hour minimum wage, those employee costs go up to, let's say to $10,000 a month. Where does that extra $5,000 come from in a small business?
You asked a question about demand side... then went over to the supply side for your example.

I'm going to assume you know the difference.

But demand sets your prices because you will not charge more than what people are willing to pay.

So, no matter what you are required to pay in a wage, you will not charge more than market tolerance, because then you loss business. And losing business will bankrupt your company quicker than any pay increase.

Where will you find that money though... Hmm... options options options:

Reduced employee turnover? Increased production? Increase in sales that came from the increase in demand?
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:49 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You asked a question about demand side... then went over to the supply side for your example.

I'm going to assume you know the difference.

But demand sets your prices because you will not charge more than what people are willing to pay.

So, no matter what you are required to pay in a wage, you will not charge more than market tolerance, because then you loss business. And losing business will bankrupt your company quicker than any pay increase.

Where will you find that money though... Hmm... options options options:

Reduced employee turnover? Increased production? Increase in sales that came from the increase in demand?
What it seems you are saying is that demand will change with minimum wage which will offset the price increase. Which, I'm sure you know isn't right. Maybe I'm reading that wrong.

Demand doesn't change because minimum wage goes up. So the demand for whatever product you are selling is the same at $15.00/hour as it is at $7.25/hour. Unless you change advertising, etc. Which costs more money on top of the increase in salaries & taxes. Maybe you are assuming that your competitors will increase their pricing which will increase demand in your product simply because it's cheaper than the competitors.

Reducing employee turnover? Not sure where that comes in. You have the same employees before the increase that you do after - they just cost more.

Increased production assumes that demand for whatever product you are selling has increased because the minimum wage went up.

So again, assuming all things are equal before & after the increase, where does that additional $5,000 come from in the above example?
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:54 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Mr. Plow View Post
Demand doesn't change because minimum wage goes up.
Correct - it changes when a company inflates the price of an item unnecessarily. I stopped buying Pepperidge farm bread when I could buy the same thing from Bimbo cheaper.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:54 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Yes, I do. Do you understand that there is infinite demand at the price of free? Do you understand if you lose money making a product that you go out of business? Do you understand that there are others way to defray cost that are not monetary?
None of those addresses "demand sets prices" Again, you have no idea what that means.

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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
You certainly are. Not only will labor price go up but the taxes that businesses have to pay to employee people will go up as well. It is a higher cost to the business then what you are pretending it will be. It will also hurt the remaining workers. They will get a higher work load, hours will be slashed, and any benefits will soon be slashed as well. Most of the businesses that employ minimum wage employees don't have huge profit margins.
More doom and gloom that has never come true.
In fact, the exact opposite:

Quote:
Study by economists at the University of California-Berkeley, University of Massachusetts-Amherst, and University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill finds sharps reductions in employee turnover in the first nine months following a minimum wage increase on the state level.
http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/researc.../sfo_mar03.pdf

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Summary: Harvard Business Review study by MIT Professor Zeynep Ton documents how major retailers such as Trader Joe’s and Costco benefit for higher sales revenue and profits than their low-wage competitors by investing in their employees, which reduces turnover and boosts productivity. For example, the starting wage at Trader Joe’s ranges between $40,000 and $60,000 per year, more than twice what many of its competitors offer, and yet the sales revenue per square foot at Trader Joe’s are three times higher than the average U.S. supermarket.

Costco CEO Craig Jelinek, March 2013: “We pay a starting hourly wage of $11.50 in all states where we do business, and we are still able to keep our overhead costs low. An important reason for the success of Costco’s business model is the attraction and retention of great employees. Instead of minimizing wages, we know it's a lot more profitable in the long term to minimize employee turnover and maximize employee productivity, commitment and loyalty. We support efforts to increase the federal minimum wage.
http://hbr.org/2012/01/why-good-jobs...retailers/ar/1

http://www.businessforafairminimumwa...mum-wage-act-i

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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Yachts cost that much because it takes a lot of money to make one. No one would make any money selling yachts for $100. Though I bet the demand for a yacht that costs $100 is pretty high. Wonder why it hasn't set that price?
Because people have shown they are willing to pay more. Jesus, you do not comprehend demand. Why charge 100 for something when people show they will pay 10 times that much?

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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
No, I expect that it costs probably 30-40 to make. I expect when all costs are factored in that the company is probably making 10-20 dollars per golf club.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:54 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Mr. Plow View Post
Where does that extra $5,000 come from in a small business?
From the owner's profits. Greed is bad.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:56 PM   #112
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Greed is bad.
Only when it interferes with a live-able wage
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:01 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Mr. Plow View Post
What it seems you are saying is that demand will change with minimum wage which will offset the price increase. Which, I'm sure you know isn't right. Maybe I'm reading that wrong.

Demand doesn't change because minimum wage goes up. So the demand for whatever product you are selling is the same at $15.00/hour as it is at $7.25/hour. Unless you change advertising, etc. Which costs more money on top of the increase in salaries & taxes. Maybe you are assuming that your competitors will increase their pricing which will increase demand in your product simply because it's cheaper than the competitors.

Reducing employee turnover? Not sure where that comes in. You have the same employees before the increase that you do after - they just cost more.

Increased production assumes that demand for whatever product you are selling has increased because the minimum wage went up.

So again, assuming all things are equal before & after the increase, where does that additional $5,000 come from in the above example?
Wow, did you just ignore all evidence to make things up.

Demand does change when the minimum wage goes up. You think those poor people just pocket the money?

Quote:
An analysis by the Economic Policy Institute shows that the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2013, which would raise the federal minimum wage to $10.10 per hour and index it to inflation, would generate more than $30 billion in new economic activity and support the creation of 140,000 new full-time jobs as businesses expand to meet increased consumer demand.
http://www.epi.org/files/2013/bp357-...e-increase.pdf

Quote:
A 2011 study by the Chicago Federal Reserve Bank finds that minimum wage increases raise incomes and increase consumer spending, especially triggering car purchases. The authors examine 23 years of household spending data and find that for every dollar increase for a minimum wage worker results in $2,800 in new consumer spending by his or her household over the following year.
http://www.chicagofed.org/digital_as.../wp2007_23.pdf

You seriously don't understand what decreased employee turnover means? It means you train less. It means you keep experienced, productivity workers longer. You can't replace experience.

And increased production means you are getting more productivity out of your workers.

I'm starting to doubt you have any actual business experience.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:03 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by DenverChief View Post
Correct - it changes when a company inflates the price of an item unnecessarily. I stopped buying Pepperidge farm bread when I could buy the same thing from Bimbo cheaper.
Not completely correct.

He is only thinking supply side.

Not the demand side, which drives business. The demand of millions of Americans having more money to spend.

More money to spend means more demand for goods and services which means job growth.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:06 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Not completely correct.

He is only thinking supply side.

Not the demand side, which drives business. The demand of millions of Americans having more money to spend.

More money to spend means more demand for goods and services which means job growth.
I agree - I'm just saying when I know something is unnecessarily more expensive than the same or similar item at another location I'd buy the cheaper.

I just bought a new car, the dealership closest to my house was advertising the car I wanted for about $4,000 more than a dealership across town....guess who earned my business?
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:14 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Not completely correct.

He is only thinking supply side.

Not the demand side, which drives business. The demand of millions of Americans having more money to spend.

More money to spend means more demand for goods and services which means job growth.
So DenverChief still buys Pepperidge Farm Bread and doesn't know it?
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:44 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Wow, did you just ignore all evidence to make things up.

Demand does change when the minimum wage goes up. You think those poor people just pocket the money?

http://www.epi.org/files/2013/bp357-...e-increase.pdf

http://www.chicagofed.org/digital_as.../wp2007_23.pdf

You seriously don't understand what decreased employee turnover means? It means you train less. It means you keep experienced, productivity workers longer. You can't replace experience.

And increased production means you are getting more productivity out of your workers.

I'm starting to doubt you have any actual business experience.
First off, I'm attempting to have a rational discussion with you about this. I'm trying to see your point of view as someone that doesn't run or work in a small business.

My business experience is running a small business for 15 years and being in the industry for almost 20 years. Whether that is sufficient enough business experience for you, I don't know and honestly don't care. I've been in every position of this business and put in the long hours for no pay and done everything to make this business what it is today.

As far as demand increasing as minimum wage increases.... I know your answer to this, but I'll say it anyway. As employee costs go up, so will costs to make & ship products. It doesn't take much to understand that if things cost more to make & ship, the cost of said item is going to increase - even for small businesses. Larger companies may be able to eat those costs, but small companies can't. If a small company wants to take a loss on said product, like you said, they'll eventually end up out of business which creates demand for your product.

In regards to decreased employee turnover - yes, I do understand what you are saying. Reducing the amount of training you are doing certainly reduces costs. But you are assuming that employees are turning over.

As I said before in a different post, in my company, we don't start at minimum wage, but you would think it's too low. Of our 23 employees, we have 5 that have been with us over 10 years, and 7-10 that have been with us 5+ years. Of the remaining 8-10 employees, the majority are college age kids finishing up their junior college degrees before moving on to KU/KSU/etc. Those 8-10 employees are younger kids not looking at this job as a career, they are using the job to pay for school to get their degree. Which we encourage.

I'm likely talking in circles at this point so I'll stop. I don't think you will have a rational discussion about it anyway.
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Old 06-04-2014, 06:49 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Plow View Post
Explain it to me in a small business aspect.

Just as an example....

A small business has $5,000 in employee cost per month paying $7.25/hour or whatever minimum wage is now. With a new $15.00/hour minimum wage, those employee costs go up to, let's say to $10,000 a month. Where does that extra $5,000 come from in a small business?
He doesn't know WTF he is talking about. That being said, it is the small business that gets but ****ed with laws like this. But see, big business is just fine with small business getting butt ****ed.

The problem is that big business sets the tone for the entire argument. When top execs have gone from an 80-1 pay differential under Reagan to almost 300-1 now while minimum wage, when factoring in inflation, has actually gone down over that time. Thus the stage is set for Liberal Do-Gooders to come in with these laws that actually make it worse, not better.
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Old 06-04-2014, 06:50 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Not completely correct.

He is only thinking supply side.

Not the demand side, which drives business. The demand of millions of Americans having more money to spend.

More money to spend means more demand for goods and services which means job growth.
So tell me, is 2 people working for $7.25 an hour better or worse than 1 person working for $15 an hour?
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:12 AM   #120
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So tell me, is 2 people working for $7.25 an hour better or worse than 1 person working for $15 an hour?
Worse.
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