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Old 06-09-2014, 03:46 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Cap and trade has had no major suppression of growth for any state that's tried it.

And this is why you have to embrace federalism. Use the states as labs for policy experiments, and see what comes out. It worked out with Romneycare turning into the Affordable Care Act. And now it seems to be working out for the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, a pact signed by nine northeastern states to embrace cap and trade in 2009.

Since 2009, all nine states have enjoyed better economic growth than the other 41. Debunking the idea that this would, therefore, be a job-killing proposal.

Now, it's not solid proof that cap and trade is an economy-booster, nor is it proof that cap and trade has zero downside to an economy.

What it does prove is that cap and trade's effect on the economy of every single state that's tried it is marginal. At best.

And, oh yeah, let's not forget it's been very effective at reducing carbon emissions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/06/up...owth.html?_r=0

Best of Both Worlds? Northeast Cut Emissions and Enjoyed Growth
Hannah Fairfield
6/6/14

Some critics of the Environmental Protection Agency’s new requirements for power plants argue that forcing emissions reduction will curtail economic growth. But the recent experience of states that already cap carbon emissions reveals that emissions and economic growth are no longer tightly tied together.

One of the ways that states will be able to meet the new E.P.A. standards is by joining a Northeastern cap-and-trade program known as the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, which first put in a carbon cap in 2009. In a cap-and-trade system, the government places a ceiling on total carbon emissions and issues permits for those emissions, which companies can buy and sell from one another.

The nine states already in the program — Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont — have substantially reduced their carbon emissions in recent years. At the same time, those states have had stronger economic growth than the rest of the country.

Historically, the demand for electricity was closely tied to growth in the economy; only recently have the two decoupled.

These nine states had large emissions drops even before the program began in 2009, in part because the recession and warmer winters lowered the demand for power. The states also began switching to natural gas power, retiring coal units, and adding wind and solar energy generation. As the economy recovered, participation in the program spurred the states to find ways to meet the increasing demand for power without driving up emissions.

Since 2009, the nine states have cut their emissions by 18 percent, while their economies grew by 9.2 percent. By comparison, emissions in the other 41 states fell by 4 percent, while their economies grew by 8.8 percent.

The states in the program “were able to reduce emissions faster and more efficiently than was previously assumed,” said Peter Shattuck, director of market initiatives at ENE, a research and advocacy group based in Boston. “It was encouraging to see how quickly they hit the targets.”

Capping carbon emissions could still slow economic growth, and it is possible that the nine states that joined the cap-and-trade program would have had even better economic growth without the program. These states have more nuclear and natural-gas energy in their portfolios than do many other states; other states that depend primarily on coal power may not be able to reduce emissions as swiftly.

But the results in the nine states suggest that the effect of the cap-and-trade program on growth was, at most, modest. The sharp cut in emissions in the Northeast did not prevent the economy there from doing just as well as elsewhere.

Joining the Northeast cap-and-trade program, or another similar program in California that began in 2013, is one of many ways states can reach the new goals the E.P.A. has set. Other options include taking a series of individual steps — such as upgrading older power plants and expanding nuclear, wind and solar power generation — without a statewide cap. The states themselves will decide exactly how they will meet the goals set for them.

Economists have long praised cap-and-trade programs, compared with detailed mandates from regulators, because they create a market in which businesses are responsible for finding the cheapest way to comply with the regulation. Businesses that devise less expensive ways to reduce pollution can sell their permits to those that cannot change their habits so easily.

The administration of President George H.W. Bush began the original cap-and-trade program in the United States, for emissions related to acid rain. It is considered a major success, with sharp reductions in acid rain at little economic cost.
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Old 06-09-2014, 06:36 PM   #2
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I dont think this has anything to do with "cap and trade", and it has everything to do with cheap natural gas.
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Old 06-09-2014, 06:38 PM   #3
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Old 06-09-2014, 07:13 PM   #4
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Old 06-09-2014, 07:16 PM   #5
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:59 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
I dont think this has anything to do with "cap and trade", and it has everything to do with cheap natural gas.
It definitely has to do with cap and trade.

If you diversify your energy resources, emissions limits won't pummel the economy as it's often warned to by conservatives opposed to it.

As we've seen now in every state that's tried it.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:17 AM   #7
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Cap and trade is dead in the long term and hopefully we can get a new 2016 president that with a stroke of a pen undo what the current dip shit Moran has done to our energy policy.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:18 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Cap and trade is dead in the long term
Because?
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:22 AM   #9
lawrenceRaider lawrenceRaider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
It definitely has to do with cap and trade.

If you diversify your energy resources, emissions limits won't pummel the economy as it's often warned to by conservatives opposed to it.

As we've seen now in every state that's tried it.
Misleading thread title, and zero to do with cap and trade. Does living in your reality distortion field rock?
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:23 AM   #10
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Because?
Because the majority of states don't want it and the public won't be fooled by articles written by authors that use warmer winters as reasons why it would be successful.

Cap and trade being sold as a positive thing just like Obamacare was isn't going to work this time.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by lawrenceRaider View Post
Misleading thread title, and zero to do with cap and trade.
It definitely has to do with cap and trade.

If you diversify your energy resources, emissions limits won't pummel the economy as it's often warned to by conservatives opposed to it.

As we've seen now in every state that's tried it.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:25 AM   #12
lawrenceRaider lawrenceRaider is offline
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
It definitely has to do with cap and trade.

If you diversify your energy resources, emissions limits won't pummel the economy as it's often warned to by conservatives opposed to it.

As we've seen now in every state that's tried it.
Again, does it rock to live in your reality distortion field?
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:25 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Because the majority of states don't want it and the public won't be fooled by articles written by authors that use warmer winters as reasons why it would be successful.
This is all nice and good, but the point the OP is arguing is that cap and trade has yet to be an economic drag on a single state that's tried it. Moreover, states have actually done well with it. Every single one.

Your response is "well, okay, but it's not popular."

You're welcome to go that route, but it doesn't exactly deflate the agency of the OP.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
This is all nice and good, but the point the OP is arguing is that cap and trade has yet to be an economic drag on a single state that's tried it. Moreover, states have actually done well with it. Every single one.

Your response is "well, okay, but it's not popular."

You're welcome to go that route, but it doesn't exactly deflate the agency of the OP.
No, the argument was that using warmer than normal winters as your base of logic is faulty. Also not going to work in states where coal is king due to the voting base that relies upon coal for jobs.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:45 AM   #15
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Direckshun must have received a new subsidy or government handout. His posting volume has picked up lately.
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