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Old 06-11-2014, 05:44 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Release of Taliban detainees shows Obama has power to close Gitmo.

There are so many levels of fail, here.

First off, you have the President violating a law to notify Congress 30 days before he makes the type of exchange he made for Bergdahl, which he justified with the exact kind of unconstitutional signing statement Bush frequently made, and the President himself condemned as a Senator.

Secondly, the five detainees the President traded off were (allegedly) among the worst detainees in Gitmo, as branded by the Pentagon. Meanwhile, the Pentagon refuses to release a great number of detainees from Gitmo who are already cleared for release.

Thirdly, Congress gave the President more authority to transfer detainees out of Gitmo if he can simply outline why the Pentagon believes they are not threats.

Fourthly, if there somehow exists the legal framework for the President to blow by Congress just like he did for Bergdahl, than he can close Gitmo tomorrow (or at least in 30 days) exactly the same way.

And yet, Gitmo remains open. One of the biggest remaining holes in this President's game.

http://america.aljazeera.com/blogs/s...losegitmo.html

Release of Taliban detainees shows Obama has power to close Gitmo
by Jason Leopold
Jun 2 4:38 PM

The transfer of five “high risk” Guantanamo detainees to Qatar over the weekend — members of the Taliban who the U.S. government had branded “forever detainees” — has lead one human rights organization to question why the Obama administration has not acted to transfer dozens of other detainees who have been cleared for release for many years.

Cori Crider, the strategic director for Reprieve, a U.K.-based human rights charity, said Monday that the transfer of the five inmates in exchange for P.O.W. Bowe Bergdahl, a U.S. Army soldier, underscores that President Obama can move quickly to shutter Guantanamo if he has the political will to act.

“Many of these are being force-fed daily in a disgusting manner because they have been cleared so long they believe they will die in Gitmo,” Crider said. “Yet they could leave tomorrow with a stroke of Obama’s pen. Let’s hope this deal is a sign of more leadership from President Obama on letting the cleared men go home, too.”

When Congress passed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) last December lawmakers gave Obama much more flexibility to transfer prisoners out of Guantanamo than they had in previous versions of the spending bill. The bill calls on the Secretary of Defense to notify Congress 30 days in advance of any transfer and outline the steps the administration has taken to ensure the detainee is not engaging in terrorist activities against the United States.

But Obama still issued a signing statement with the legislation that said Congress did not go far enough:

Quote:
For the past several years, the Congress has enacted unwarranted and burdensome restrictions that have impeded my ability to transfer detainees from Guantanamo. Earlier this year I again called upon the Congress to lift these restrictions and, in this bill, the Congress has taken a positive step in that direction. Section 1035 of this Act gives the Administration additional flexibility to transfer detainees abroad by easing rigid restrictions that have hindered negotiations with foreign countries and interfered with executive branch determinations about how and where to transfer detainees. Section 1035 does not, however, eliminate all of the unwarranted limitations on foreign transfers and, in certain circumstances, would violate constitutional separation of powers principles. The executive branch must have the flexibility, among other things, to act swiftly in conducting negotiations with foreign countries regarding the circumstances of detainee transfers. Of course, even in the absence of any statutory restrictions, my Administration would transfer a detainee only if the threat the detainee may pose can be sufficiently mitigated and only when consistent with our humane treatment policy. Section 1035 nevertheless represents an improvement over current law and is a welcome step toward closing the facility.
It appears that Obama may have acted on the authority claimed from Congress in his signing statement when he turned over the five long-term detainees to the custody of Qatar.

Raha Wala, an attorney with Human Rights First, told Al Jazeera if the administration can make the argument that the five Taliban detainees are transferrable “without any significant problems under the congressionally imposed transfer restrictions” then certainly “the same argument can be made for the detainees who have already been cleared for release.”

With that said, however, it still remains unclear what authority the White House used to authorize the transfer of the former detainees and why the administration felt it did not need to abide by the law and notify Congress.

“It's a fair question,” said a lobbyist working on detainee matters who spoke to Al Jazeera on background. “I really do think the administration needs to answer that question. They should give an explanation as to why [the notification] didn't apply in this instance. It’s hard to read what it means for the future of Guantanamo and Guantanamo detainees. It’s still a more aggressive posture toward closing Guantanamo than the president has showed in the past.”

White House National Security Council spokeswoman Caitlin Hayden told Al Jazeera that Bergdahl's recovery was the "result of unique and exigent circumstances" and "due to a near-term opportunity to save his life, the Administration moved as quickly as possible and determined that the transfer should go forward notwithstanding the notice requirement of the NDAA."

Hayden also said the administration is "making progress on a number of additional promising opportunities" to hasten the closure of Guantanamo, consistent with a promise Obama made after he was sworn into office. She said 17 prisoners have been transferred since Obama gave a major counterterrorism speech in May 2013. While Hayden noted that Obama lifted the moratorium on the transfer of Yemeni detainees none have been repatriated. However, she said the administration is "now reviewing Yemeni detainees on a case-by-case basis."
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:25 PM   #31
patteeu patteeu is offline
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that is a bullshit statement. I have already posted quotes from top military leaders saying that torture does not work, and in fact leads to blowback that may very well threaten the safety of your family and other Americans.
So what? That argument is fallacious.

There are very good reasons for our military leaders to perpetrate the notion that torture doesn't work. Maintaining discipline in the ranks, is at the top of the list.
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:07 PM   #32
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So what? That argument is fallacious.
its not an argument from authority, its an argument from the facts. It is well known that the US use of torture at Abu Ghraib led to a surge of new recruits for Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

link
Quote:
Originally Posted by John McCain
I think that these interrogations once publicized helped al Qaeda recruit. I got that from an al Qaeda operative in a prison camp in Iraq who told-- who told me that....I was in -- Senator Lindsey Graham and I were in -- in Camp Bucca, the twenty-thousand-prisoner camp. We met with a former high-ranking member of al Qaeda. I said, "How did you succeed so well in Iraq after the initial invasions?" He said two things. One, the chaos that existed after the initial invasion, there was no order of any kind. Two, he said, Abu Ghraib pictures allowed me and helped me to recruit thousands of young men to our cause. Now that's al Qaeda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Former General Counsel to the Navy Alberto Mora in testimony to Congress
There are serving U.S. flag-rank officers who maintain that the first and second identifiable causes of U.S. combat deaths in Iraq -- as judged by their effectiveness in recruiting insurgent fighters into combat -- are, respectively the symbols of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.
this is called blowback

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Ray Odierno
The graphic revelations of detainee abuse motivated some terrorists including foreign fighters from Syria, Yemen and Saudi Arabia to join the jihad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by General David Petraeus
An influx of foreign fighters from outside Afghanistan and new recruits from within Afghan could materialize, as the new photos serve as potent recruiting material to attract new members to join the insurgency....Treating detainees harshly only reinforces that distorted view, increases resistance to cooperation, and creates new enemies.
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There are very good reasons for our military leaders to perpetrate the notion that torture doesn't work. Maintaining discipline in the ranks, is at the top of the list.
citation needed.
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Old 06-12-2014, 08:33 PM   #33
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
its not an argument from authority, its an argument from the facts. It is well known that the US use of torture at Abu Ghraib led to a surge of new recruits for Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.
No, it was definitely an argument from authority. I understand that these people are saying the things you already believe, but that doesn't make the argument any stronger or less fallacious.
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:01 PM   #34
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No, it was definitely an argument from authority. I understand that these people are saying the things you already believe, but that doesn't make the argument any stronger or less fallacious.
They are giving 1st person accounts under oath. Their reports hold more credibility than your uncited and naive musings.

Iraq War Vets Detail Calamitous Torture Blowback
Quote:
Frank Ford, a 32-year veteran of military and counter-intelligence assignments, served in Samara, the ancient capital of Mesopotamia, during Operation Iraqi Freedom. His military service began when he served with President Richard Nixon's Presidential security detail at the Western White House in San Clemente, California.

Ford said at the outset of his assignment in Samara his unit was witnessing 105-100 walk-ins of intelligence sources per day. The only problem was recording and reporting on all the intelligence being provided. After the May 2004 "Wedding Day Massacre" by US troops of a wedding party in the village of Mukaradeeb in western Iraq, near the Syrian border, Ford said things "went south real fast." He said there was an immediate response from the Iraqis. The soured relations with the Iraqis resulted in walk-in intelligence sources dropping from 105 to 110 a day to 2 to 3, and soon to zero. Immediately, U.S. troops in Samara were besieged. The U.S. response was to pick up all males between the ages of 10 and 100 whereupon they were "bagged, tagged, and brutalized." These clean sweeps were conducted in 120 degree temperatures. The new American tactic resulted in an escalation of insurgent attacks. Iraq war veteran Garrett Repenhagen said that Abu Ghraib changed things in Iraq. He said that after news of the abuse became public, many Iraqis shifted their support to the insurgency.
These are first person accounts that you will easily dismiss because it doesnt meet your twisted worldview regarding torture.

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Old 06-12-2014, 10:29 PM   #35
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:42 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
They are giving 1st person accounts under oath. Their reports hold more credibility than your uncited and naive musings.

Iraq War Vets Detail Calamitous Torture Blowback


These are first person accounts that you will easily dismiss because it doesnt meet your twisted worldview regarding torture.
Blowback is a cost of doing business, so the only thing that really matters is whether or not the benefit outweighs the cost. But anyway, that's all beside the point.

I'm taking issue with your fallacious support for the notion that "torture doesn't work".
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:56 PM   #37
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patteau, you cant even keep your story straight.

In post #31 you say that my argument that torture may very well result in blowback that threatens the safety of Americans is wrong, but in post #36 you aknowledge blowback and that its a "cost of doing buisness."

I have already provided numerous quotes from others (and now video from John McCain) stating that torture doesnt work. You have yet to provide any citations for your advocacy of torture.

The only thing you have shown is that your moral compass is broken.



by the way, did you just learn the word fallacious? you might want to try to expand your vocabulary.
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
patteau, you cant even keep your story straight.

In post #31 you say that my argument that torture may very well result in blowback that threatens the safety of Americans is wrong, but in post #36 you aknowledge blowback and that its a "cost of doing buisness."

I have already provided numerous quotes from others (and now video from John McCain) stating that torture doesnt work. You have yet to provide any citations for your advocacy of torture.
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:59 PM   #39
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the page is under construction, coming soon!
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:13 PM   #40
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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the page is under construction, coming soon!
I just assumed that would be his official website.
Maybe its www.chickenhawk.com.
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:26 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
patteau, you cant even keep your story straight.

In post #31 you say that my argument that torture may very well result in blowback that threatens the safety of Americans is wrong, but in post #36 you aknowledge blowback and that its a "cost of doing buisness."

I have already provided numerous quotes from others (and now video from John McCain) stating that torture doesnt work. You have yet to provide any citations for your advocacy of torture.

The only thing you have shown is that your moral compass is broken.



by the way, did you just learn the word fallacious? you might want to try to expand your vocabulary.
No, my story is straight. Your entire argument, both the "torture works" and "torture causes blowback" was fallacious. Since I'm of the view that everything causes blowback, including blowback, the latter argument doesn't interest me that much so my focus is on the former. This should be clear from my explanation that top military commanders have incentives to perpetrate the myth that torture doesn't work.

I'm not advocating torture. I oppose torture. I just don't need to embrace fairy tales to justify my position.
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:32 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
In post #31 you say that my argument that torture may very well result in blowback that threatens the safety of Americans is wrong, but in post #36 you aknowledge blowback and that its a "cost of doing buisness."

...

by the way, did you just learn the word fallacious? you might want to try to expand your vocabulary.
By the way, you should learn about the word "fallacious". Fallacious doesn't mean "wrong".

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I have already provided numerous quotes from others (and now video from John McCain) stating that torture doesnt work. You have yet to provide any citations for your advocacy of torture.
Again, you should try to understand fallacies, especially the appeal to authority.
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:39 AM   #43
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I just don't need to embrace fairy tales to justify my position.
you have yet to justify your position. Until you have it is a fairy tale.

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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
By the way, you should learn about the word "fallacious". Fallacious doesn't mean "wrong".
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fallacious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meriam Webster definition of fallacious (adjective)
containing a mistake : not true or accurate
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...ry&word=wrong#
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meriam Webster definiton of wrong (adjective)
not agreeing with the facts or truth

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Old 06-13-2014, 08:04 AM   #44
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you have yet to justify your position. Until you have it is a fairy tale.
That's not how reality works. Reality doesn't wait around for someone to prove it exists. It exists regardless of what you or I have to say about it. If you really want me to, I can walk you through a thought experiment to test the "torture doesn't work" theory.

Keep working on that vocabulary, you're not done yet. Fallacious has multiple meanings. In this case we were talking about logic and arguments. A fallacious argument is one that doesn't hold up to scrutiny on the basis of logic, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the assertion to be proven is wrong. What it does mean is that your argument isn't as strong as you thought it was and it certainly doesn't end the debate.
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Old 06-13-2014, 09:01 AM   #45
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That's not how reality works. Reality doesn't wait around for someone to prove it exists. It exists regardless of what you or I have to say about it.
Like God?

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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
If you really want me to, I can walk you through a thought experiment to test the "torture doesn't work" theory.
go ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Keep working on that vocabulary, you're not done yet. Fallacious has multiple meanings. In this case we were talking about logic and arguments. A fallacious argument is one that doesn't hold up to scrutiny on the basis of logic, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the assertion to be proven is wrong.
A simple test to see if a word is a synonym is by using it in a sentence in place of the original word. In this case "wrong" is a synonym for "fallacious."

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What it does mean is that your argument isn't as strong as you thought it was and it certainly doesn't end the debate.
there is no debate when you are unable to substantiate your assertions.
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