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Old 06-11-2014, 10:25 PM  
Cochise Cochise is offline
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Rand Paul comes out for amnesty

Rand Paul throws weight behind immigration reform effort
Makes calls with Grover Norquist seeking conservative support

Sen. Rand Paul on Wednesday waded deeper into an issue that has proved perilous to some of his GOP colleagues, throwing his political weight behind an establishment lobby effort to get Congress to reform the country’s immigration system this year.

Mr. Paul, a libertarian-leaning Republican from Kentucky and possible 2016 presidential hopeful, participated in a telephone conference call to conservative and business leaders in favor of immigration reform in an effort brokered by anti-tax activist Grover Norquist, The Washington Times has learned.

The business group, the Partnership for a New American Economy, immediately blasted an email Wednesday evening to supporters crowing that Mr. Paul had formally joined its pro-reform effort.

The timing of the call only heightened the potential stakes for Mr. Paul just one day after House Majority Leader Eric Cantor was shockingly ousted from office in the Virginia Republican primary in favor of a little-known college professor.

Tea party activists who whipped up a get-out-the-vote effort for Mr. Cantor’s opponent said they were motivated by the incumbent’s advocacy for immigration reform, actions on Obamacare and vote to raise the nation’s debt ceiling.

Mr. Cantor was the second high-profile Republican to suffer political damage by stepping forward on the immigration issue. Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida, another potential presidential contender, lost the support of his tea party base when he advocated a plan for immigration that some argued created a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants.

Mr. Paul, a longtime favorite of the tea party movement, has made it clear that he believes Congress needs the courage to enact immigration reform. But his latest effort pushed him further into the middle of a strident battle between establishment Republicans like Mr. Norquist who see immigration reform as essential to economic growth, and tea party activists who fear the current efforts in Congress will only lead to de facto amnesty for illegal immigrants.

Those familiar with the efforts to enlist Mr. Paul in the call said if the senator from Kentucky can use his influence with the two factions to find common ground, he would create the base of an expansive coalition to aid his presidential ambitions.

The danger, others noted, is that he could be portrayed as an establishment sympathizer and have some his base turn against him.

One of his chief rivals for tea party affection — both inside the Senate and possibly in the 2016 GOP race — is Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, who has made clear that he plans to make Republicans uncomfortable if they gravitate toward amnesty.

Mr. Cruz on Wednesday told TellDC, the video partner of The Washington Times, that the Virginia election was a wake-up call to any elected official who goes against their constituencies’ wishes.

“That election is a lesson to every elected official that if we don’t listen to the people who elected us, our tenure here is limited,” the freshman Republican said.

Mr. Paul, whose supporters style him as a “live and let live” conservative, can use the issue to try to coalesce behind his disparate GOP coalition elements, including tea party backers, traditionalist conservatives, business interests and establishment Republicans.

A top Paul aide confirmed the alliance of Mr. Paul and Mr. Norquist on immigration reform, after The Times received a copy of an email sent to Republicans, Democrats, independents and others thought to be open to some kind of reform.

“Rand made the calls on immigration reform with Grover this morning,” Doug Stafford, who heads Mr. Paul’s political action committee, told The Times.

The email from the group announcing Mr. Paul’s participation opened with a subject line that stated that the senator “adds voice to #CallForReform.”

“Today, Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) joined Grover Norquist to talk about the importance of passing immigration reform this year on the second call in a series with conservative leaders,” the group’s executive director, Jeremy Robbins, wrote in the email.

The message went on to note that “Senator Paul follows Sal Russo, co-founder of the Tea Party Express, who launched the series last month by calling for an overhaul of America’s immigration laws this year.”

The email concluded by noting that Mr. Paul and Mr. Russo “join an increasingly large group of conservatives who understand that the future of our economy depends on fixing our outdated immigration reform system.”

Many Americans of all political stripes regard the phrase “immigration reform” as code for granting amnesty to foreigners living in the U.S. illegally.

To some “rule of law” conservatives, it is a swear word. To other conservatives, putting millions of illegal immigrants on the road to legal status and eventually to citizenship is realistic politically and fair for people who flee warlords, drug lords and dysfunctional economies abroad to find work in the U.S.

The Partnership for a New American Economy boasts such high-profile members as former New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, a common foe of gun rights advocates and many other conservatives, and the equally wealthy Rupert Murdoch, the conservative owner of major newspapers and the Fox television family of news and entertainment channels.

The organization’s website claims it “brings together more than 500 Republican, Democratic, and independent mayors and business leaders united in making the economic case for streamlining, modernizing, and rationalizing our immigration system.”

Mr. Paul has been calling for a reform of immigration laws that secures the borders first, provides for a robust guest-worker program and can, under certain conditions, lead to the legalization of those who entered the U.S. without authorization or who overstayed their visas.


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Old 06-12-2014, 02:22 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
Given the existence of the four people you mentioned (two parents, two kids), the problem already exists.
And you amplify it by taking their kids into the foster system.

I'm simply pointing out how ending birthright citizenship creates more problems than it fixes.

If you end birthright, well now you've significantly multiplied your illegal immigrants problem. If you introduce their children into the foster system instead, well....now you've just created a massive burden on that system as well.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:22 PM   #77
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You did the same thing that these children you mention did to become American citizens. The same thing that I did. Which is nothing.
That's irrelevant to my point. One is a result of breaking the law and rewards that kind of behavior. You get more of what you reward or you get more of what you subsidize. It encourages the behavior. So it's tough, if I did nothing for it. My parents broke no laws.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:23 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Detoxing View Post
Dumbest post in the thread.
Not hardly. It's the truth that Democrats see a sea of minority voters. The cynically named DREAM and KIDS acts have created an immigration magnet because everyone in the world who wants to come to America are now saying "we've got to just get there before they vote it in, and we're gold! Let's drop everything and do it."

There's nothing dumb about recognizing the Democrat's motivations in this debate.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:24 PM   #79
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I also think the Mexican govt and the US govt high up is complicit in the illegal immigration. Do our leaders really do anything to punish Mexico?
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:25 PM   #80
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Everyone's family on all sides are immigrants. Even the "Native Americans" came from a different continent.
So
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:25 PM   #81
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Not hardly. It's the truth that Democrats see a sea of minority voters. The cynically named DREAM and KIDS acts have created an immigration magnet because everyone in the world who wants to come to America are now saying "we've got to just get there before they vote it in, and we're gold! Let's drop everything and do it."

There's nothing dumb about recognizing the Democrat's motivations in this debate.
Yeah, I was gonna comment the same so "ditto" on this.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:25 PM   #82
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The federal govt has mandates on states that they have to be provided free medical care and education per Ron Paul.

Ron Paul proposed the following action steps for dealing with illegal immigration:
1.Abolish the welfare state.
[ I agree this is not possible currently.]
The incentive to take a job at whatever wage available must prevail.

2.Establish a generous visitor work program.
Once we solve the economic crisis by introducing sound money, demand for domestic and immigrant labor will rise.

3. Enforce the laws on the books with more border guards.
Allow states and landowners to enforce the law and provide security assistance.

4. Abolish birthright citizenship for children of illegal immigrants.
Current U.S. citizens will not be affected. Instead, babies born to illegals after a future cutoff date will no longer gain automatic U.S. citizenship. They will still have citizenship in their parents' home countries.

5.End all federal mandates on the states to provide free education and medical care for illegal immigrants.
http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/border-security/
I know you're not suggesting that we deny children the right to an education.....right? Please tell that's not what you're thinking.

Are you also suggesting that we simply deny 12million people basic medical treatment? You can't seriously be considering that, right?

And again, what we commonly refer to as Welfare, such as food stamps etc, is not available to Illegals.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:27 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Not hardly. It's the truth that Democrats see a sea of minority voters. The cynically named DREAM and KIDS acts have created an immigration magnet because everyone in the world who wants to come to America are now saying "we've got to just get there before they vote it in, and we're gold! Let's drop everything and do it."

There's nothing dumb about recognizing the Democrat's motivations in this debate.
What's dumb about the post is the suggestion that Republicans shouldn't try to address this issue.

Do i really need to explain why that's a stupid idea?
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:28 PM   #84
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That's irrelevant to my point. One is a result of breaking the law and rewards that kind of behavior. You get more of what you reward or you get more of what you subsidize. It encourages the behavior. So it's tough, if I did nothing for it. My parents broke no laws.
So.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:31 PM   #85
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They need to secure the border then reform immigration. I have no problem with immigration in general when it brings people that will be law abiding citizens that contribute to their communities--and learn to speak English.

If I'm Texas, I say to the feds: "You have 1 week to present viable plan to us to secure our border. You have 30 days to start the process. You have 6 months to complete the process. Any delay in this and we will secede from the Union and secure it ourselves."

I'm not from Texas, but as a Kansan, I'd completely understand their position.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:31 PM   #86
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I don't agree.

It takes away a reward which removes the incentive to come illegally. The idea is to discourage--not just use border patrols which is nearly impossible to do completely. No system is going to be 100% perfect but this certainly would be a discouraging factor. It would just be one facet the other is no free medical care or education.
It might be a concern for those who are crossing with the intention to start a family. Yet for those who cross with no intention of starting a family, yet end up doing it incidentally, you've just created a whole new problem that will multiply.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned: You assume that "X" country will simply accept this child as a citizen of their own simply because we declared him not an American. El Salvador might simply say, "He wasn't born here either, he was born in the U.S, that's your problem"

Now what are you going to do with that kid?

Again, you're creating more problems than you're fixing.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:31 PM   #87
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If you really want to split hairs you can give the parents the option of choosing. The kids get the same citizenship as the parents, or the kids become wards of the State and the parents get deported.
You want the state responsible for managing a growing population of immigrants separated from their parents at birth? That sounds like a horrifying proposition.

I like your first idea much better - kids get the same citizenship as the parents.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:32 PM   #88
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I know you're not suggesting that we deny children the right to an education.....right? Please tell that's not what you're thinking.
Well, you are re-wording my argument to "children" in general...and I did not say that.

Quote:
Are you also suggesting that we simply deny 12million people basic medical treatment? You can't seriously be considering that, right?
Private hospitals can make their own policies...but the federal govt should not mandate this.

Quote:
And again, what we commonly refer to as Welfare, such as food stamps etc, is not available to Illegals.
Mandated by govt free healthcare is welfare. They can pay for any medical care if they want it. This has also harmed law abiding American citizens by driving up our health care costs. So we are subsidizing them. Furthermore, they have socialized care in Mexico. So if they don't like this policy they can go back on their own free will. They can get an education back in their home country too. Bottom line, this is their choice. If they come, they have to obey our laws.

If they have not contributed anything to the country when they have arrived, then they have no right to free anything courtesy of the US federal govt or any govt. That's welfare. And it's a lure that rewards illegal activity. What you subsidize you get more of in economics.

Sorry that's how I feel about it. You obviously are for free services and benefits to law breaking foreigners. So you support welfare for illegals who broke the law.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:33 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by jaa1025 View Post
They need to secure the border then reform immigration. I have no problem with immigration in general when it brings people that will be law abiding citizens that contribute to their communities--and learn to speak English.

If I'm Texas, I say to the feds: "You have 1 week to present viable plan to us to secure our border. You have 30 days to start the process. You have 6 months to complete the process. Any delay in this and we will secede from the Union and secure it ourselves."

I'm not from Texas, but as a Kansan, I'd completely understand their position.
I was onboard with you until you started babbling on about seceding. Now you're venturing into RWNJ status.
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:34 PM   #90
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It might be a concern for those who are crossing with the intention to start a family. Yet for those who cross with no intention of starting a family, yet end up doing it incidentally, you've just created a whole new problem that will multiply.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned: You assume that "X" country will simply accept this child as a citizen of their own simply because we declared him not an American. El Salvador might simply say, "He wasn't born here either, he was born in the U.S, that's your problem"

Now what are you going to do with that kid?

Again, you're creating more problems than you're fixing.
No, I am reducing their incentive to come here illegally.

Your point about another country not accepting them is ludicrous. They come from some other country. Unless that country keeps no birth records you have that problem.
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