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Old 06-16-2014, 01:24 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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FEDS TAKE RECORD $1.9 TRILLION IN REVENUE

Yes, this is a Drudge Headline. Yes, you can eat it if you don't like that. This should end the discussion about needing to raise revenues. Despite taking in a record $1.9 trillion, they're running a deficit of $436 billion.

The problem isn't that the rich aren't kicking in their "fair share." The problem is the pigs in DC will promise anything and everything in order to get elected.

This is why the tea party was willing to shut down the government. This is why they were willing to do the sequester. This is why the tea party is willing to replace conservative leaders. And it will keep on this way until those numbers get fixed.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...l-running-436b
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Old 06-16-2014, 09:57 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Spending a couple trillion in wars while cutting taxes is the fiscal conservative thing to do, am I right?
Not very good at reading are you?

I said both were big spenders. I never claimed that Bush was a fiscal conservative. Just that the Clinton surplus is a huge myth.
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Old 06-16-2014, 09:59 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Not very good at reading are you?

I said both were big spenders. I never claimed that Bush was a fiscal conservative. Just that the Clinton surplus is a huge myth.
It was in response to this:

"Also tax cuts shouldn't be considered a cost."

As in, when you go off and piss away two trillion dollars, cutting taxes seems logical... in stupid land.

So yes, it can be considered a "cost", when you are pissing away more money then we have while also cutting revenue.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:20 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
And this leads you to diagnose the problem as one of revenue, not spending? No, the problem is definitely spending and yes, the voters are complicit.
The voters aren't merely "complicit", that implies that they are aiding or allowing some other evil organization to spend money.

The voters are the end-all be-all here, if they are willing to enforce their demands at the ballot box, they get to decide how much they want in social security, medicare, etc. Period.

Its pretty clear, at least to me, that they have insisted and are going to continue to insist on roughly what we're spending now, and since that amount is higher than our revenue, and since revenue would increase, not decrease, if taxes were raised, then we have a revenue problem, not a spending problem.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The voters aren't merely "complicit", that implies that they are aiding or allowing some other evil organization to spend money.

The voters are the end-all be-all here, if they are willing to enforce their demands at the ballot box, they get to decide how much they want in social security, medicare, etc. Period.

Its pretty clear, at least to me, that they have insisted and are going to continue to insist on roughly what we're spending now, and since that amount is higher than our revenue, and since revenue would increase, not decrease, if taxes were raised, then we have a revenue problem, not a spending problem.
My wife doesn't have a spending problem. She clearly wants all those clothes and shoes. She has a credit card limit problem. Fix that, and the problem is solved.

That's moronic.
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Old 06-17-2014, 03:50 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
What should matter is not the numbers, but how much is needed to defend the country. So we don't need to be in over 140 countries, starting aggressive wars or policing every single conflict or engaging in regime change because we don't like a govt. None of these things is what this country was ever supposed to be about. Such things are not defense and some are offense.

So 'eff your numbers.
Again, that is a completely different argument. Whether or not we "need" to be in over 140 different countries has nothing to do with whether or not military spending is the cause of the budget crisis.
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Old 06-17-2014, 04:08 AM   #51
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This is the quintessential example of how to lie with statistics. It treats tax cuts as a cost to the government despite the fact that tax revenues are at an all-time high (see the title of this thread). It completely ignores the fact that the only relevant measure is in fact percentage of GDP, not absolute dollar amounts.

If you don't understand why that's true there's really not a lot I can do for you. There's simply too much ground to cover. It would be like trying to explain simple economics to someone who argues over and over that the minimum wage should be based upon what people "need" rather than the economic value of the job to the employer.
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Old 06-17-2014, 04:14 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The voters aren't merely "complicit", that implies that they are aiding or allowing some other evil organization to spend money.

The voters are the end-all be-all here, if they are willing to enforce their demands at the ballot box, they get to decide how much they want in social security, medicare, etc. Period.

Its pretty clear, at least to me, that they have insisted and are going to continue to insist on roughly what we're spending now, and since that amount is higher than our revenue, and since revenue would increase, not decrease, if taxes were raised, then we have a revenue problem, not a spending problem.
Like I already said in this thread, the problem isn't guns versus butter. The problem is bread and circuses. Democracy fails when the plebes discover they can vote themselves bread and circuses. Thanks for helping to prove my argument.
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Old 06-17-2014, 06:43 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
This is the quintessential example of how to lie with statistics. It treats tax cuts as a cost to the government despite the fact that tax revenues are at an all-time high (see the title of this thread). It completely ignores the fact that the only relevant measure is in fact percentage of GDP, not absolute dollar amounts.

If you don't understand why that's true there's really not a lot I can do for you. There's simply too much ground to cover. It would be like trying to explain simple economics to someone who argues over and over that the minimum wage should be based upon what people "need" rather than the economic value of the job to the employer.
Tax cuts can and should be measured when Bush hacked taxes like he did while pissing away 2 trillion dollars.

And a percentage of GDP is meaningless because the GDP goes up and down, which then doesn't reflect actual spending.

Know why Military spending was so high as a percent of GDP in the 40's? Because our GDP sucked. That is how you lie with statistics. Not by pointing out ACTUAL spending amounts and how the affected the Deficit.

Is that too hard for you to understand?

/Companies socializing their labor costs onto the tax payer is the reason the minimum wage should be raised. I bet that's too hard for you to understand too.
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Old 06-17-2014, 06:53 AM   #54
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Old 06-17-2014, 07:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
This is the quintessential example of how to lie with statistics. It treats tax cuts as a cost to the government despite the fact that tax revenues are at an all-time high (see the title of this thread). It completely ignores the fact that the only relevant measure is in fact percentage of GDP, not absolute dollar amounts.

If you don't understand why that's true there's really not a lot I can do for you. There's simply too much ground to cover. It would be like trying to explain simple economics to someone who argues over and over that the minimum wage should be based upon what people "need" rather than the economic value of the job to the employer.
Um, tax cuts are a cost to the government. They are forgone revenue.

Tax revenues are at an all time high because GDP has continued to grow over the years. Tax revenues collected as a % of GDP aren't even close to being at all time highs.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:09 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
You are both essentially arguing that you can't be overspending on something if that spending, when expressed as a % of something else, goes down. That's silly.
It's silly that you think that's what we're arguing.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:15 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The voters aren't merely "complicit", that implies that they are aiding or allowing some other evil organization to spend money.

The voters are the end-all be-all here, if they are willing to enforce their demands at the ballot box, they get to decide how much they want in social security, medicare, etc. Period.

Its pretty clear, at least to me, that they have insisted and are going to continue to insist on roughly what we're spending now, and since that amount is higher than our revenue, and since revenue would increase, not decrease, if taxes were raised, then we have a revenue problem, not a spending problem.
The word "complicit" indicates that they're completely guilty but that there are other guilty parties involved. That's a perfect description of what's happening. I'm not sure why you want to absolve our elected leadership. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Your last paragraph is nonsensical. It's like in a high crime area saying that criminals are going to continue to commit crimes so we don't have a crime problem we have a criminal apprehension problem.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:20 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Why are you posting bogus graphs? "Current policies" don't ever last forever. Why does the segment related to Afghanistan/Iraq continue to increase all the way out to 2019 when we've already withdrawn from Iraq and we're in the process of withdrawing from Afghanistan in 2014?

The difference between the cost of an Iraq War and the cost of a new entitlement like Obamacare is that the Iraq War eventually ends so the costs are temporary whereas Obamacare's costs will continue to increase until the program is repealed or reformed or bankrupt, just like all the other entitlements.
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:44 AM   #59
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You just won't let it go, will you? I just destroyed the argument that you and the other libs were making, and you respond with "but, but, it's still too much!".

If you want to argue that the United States shouldn't have a strong military, then at least own it and make the argument. But the fact is that our out of control spending is NOT due to too much military spending. The numbers prove it.

It's not about guns versus butter. It's about bread and circuses.

“Me and the other Libs” I bet cosmo and Loneiguana got a good chuckle out of that.

I really don’t think you understood what I was saying at all. I am saying that we are spending too much money all over and, one of the area’s that needs to be addressed is the military. I’m not suggesting neutering our capabilities but, I see no need to pay the bill to defend our Allies all over the globe. For the left to take the country's financial situation seriously the right is going to have to be willing to cut some things they care about as well.
While we certainly have spent a larger % on the budget on defense in the past, that really isn’t any more relevant than the left pointing out how much FDR was spending on work projects compared to now. These are different times with different needs. We do need the military to be able to defend the country and our interests. We don’t need to run around invading every country we don’t like. I wouldn’t suggest it but, if our defense budget were ½ of what it is now we will still be out spending any potential enemy and be in no danger of being invaded. I don’t see that drastic of a cut as desirable or a good idea but, it could be done if we had to. Likewise there is much waste and abuse in our social programs that needs to be addressed. We simply can’t do everything for everyone and if you add up Local, State, Federal and social security taxes for those of us not on the Government teat, you will be hard pressed to find people that think “I should be paying more”. Plenty of people that think the "other guy" needs to pay more but not us. If the Fed can’t get by on 1.9 trillion dollars the suck at their jobs. We need to be cutting and I am good with starting with the Salaries and benefit packages of our Congressmen and Senators.

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Old 06-17-2014, 10:43 AM   #60
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Again, that is a completely different argument. Whether or not we "need" to be in over 140 different countries has nothing to do with whether or not military spending is the cause of the budget crisis.
I can understand how you'd think that. However, I think it's related to the concept of spending more than we need. Percentages just don't reveal that. Again, percentages tend to make large amounts seem less than they are. It's part of our spending problem.

Percentages regarding certain groups committing crime are different since it helps prevent the broad brush effect of so many being guilty.
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