Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Ankle Breaker Lounge > D.C.

View Poll Results: Agree or disagree?
Agree completely 22 61.11%
Mostly Agree 8 22.22%
Uncertain 1 2.78%
Mostly Disagree 3 8.33%
Disagree Completely 2 5.56%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-20-2014, 09:35 AM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
12on Paul
 
Taco John's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Casino cash: $10100920
Rand Paul: America Shouldn't Choose Sides in Iraq's Civil War

America Shouldn't Choose Sides in Iraq's Civil War

Obama has made mistakes but so did Bush by invading. There's no good case for U.S. military intervention now.

By RAND PAUL

Though many claim the mantle of Ronald Reagan on foreign policy, too few look at how he really conducted it. The Iraq war is one of the best examples of where we went wrong because we ignored that.

In 1984, Reagan's Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger developed the following criteria for war, primarily to avoid another Vietnam. His speech, "The Uses of Military Power," boils down to this: The United States should not commit forces to combat unless the vital national interests of the U.S. or its allies are involved and only "with the clear intention of winning." U.S. combat troops should be committed only with "clearly defined political and military objectives" and with the capacity to accomplish those objectives and with a "reasonable assurance" of the support of U.S. public opinion and Congress and only "as a last resort."

Much of the rationale for going to war in 2003 did not measure up to the Weinberger Doctrine, and I opposed the Iraq war. I thought we needed to be more prudent about the weightiest decision a country can make. Like Reagan, I thought we should never be eager to go to war. And now, 11 years later, we are still dealing with the consequences.


Today the Middle East is less stable than in 2003. The Iraq war strengthened Iran's influence in Iraq and throughout the Middle East. Sunni extremists backed by Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar have filled the vacuum. The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) has taken over the cities of Mosul, Tikrit and is on the march to Baghdad.

While President Obama said Thursday he will not send "combat troops," he said he is sending 300 military advisers and he has 275 servicemen to guard the U.S. Embassy. Few are advocating for boots on the ground but many are calling for airstrikes.

Let me address both of these. First, we should not put any U.S. troops on the ground in Iraq, unless it is to secure or evacuate U.S. personnel and diplomatic facilities. And while we may not completely rule out airstrikes, there are many questions that need to be addressed first.

What would airstrikes accomplish? We know that Iran is aiding the Iraqi government against ISIS. Do we want to, in effect, become Iran's air force? What's in this for Iran? Why should we choose a side, and if we do, who are we really helping?

This administration, through bad decision-making that I specifically warned against, has already indirectly aided al Qaeda and ISIS in Syria—the very group some now propose to counter with U.S. troops.

For the small group calling for boots on the ground—how can we ask our brave men and women to risk their lives for a country the Iraqis aren't willing to fight for themselves? Iraqi soldiers are stripping off their uniforms and fleeing this fight. We shouldn't ask our soldiers to put their uniforms on to take their places.

No matter what the administration is planning, I also insist that it go through Congress. President Obama declared this war over and even asked Congress to rescind its 2002 Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq, something I agreed with. If he or others want a new war or military action, they need a new approval, from Congress, or I will oppose them.

The U.S. spent eight years training the Iraqis and nearly a decade of war has brought us to this point. Those who say it was a mistake to leave are forgetting that Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's government was demanding we leave in 2011.

Those who say we must re-engage in Iraq are also forgetting an important part of the Weinberger Doctrine: "U.S. troops should not be committed to battle without a 'reasonable assurance' of the support of U.S. public opinion and Congress." To attempt to transform Iraq into something more amenable to our interests would likely require another decade of U.S. presence and perhaps another 4,000 American lives—a generational commitment that few Americans would be willing to make.

Many of those clamoring for military action now are the same people who made every false assumption imaginable about the cost, challenge and purpose of the Iraq war. They have been so wrong for so long. Why should we listen to them again?

Saying the mess in Iraq is President Obama's fault ignores what President Bush did wrong. Saying it is President Bush's fault is to ignore all the horrible foreign policy decisions in Syria, Libya, Egypt and elsewhere under President Obama, many of which may have contributed to the current crisis in Iraq. For former Bush officials to blame President Obama or for Democrats to blame President Bush only serves as a reminder that both sides continue to get foreign policy wrong. We need a new approach, one that emulates Reagan's policies, puts America first, seeks peace, faces war reluctantly, and when necessary acts fully and decisively.

Too many in Washington are prevented by their own pride from admitting their mistakes. They are more concerned about saving face or pursuing a rigid ideology than they are with constructing a realist foreign policy.

David Frum, a former speechwriter for George W. Bush and a strong advocate for the Iraq war, said recently that "the United States overestimated the threat from Saddam Hussein in 2003. Without an active nuclear-weapons program, he was not a danger beyond his immediate vicinity. That war cost this country dearly. The United States failed in its most ambitious objective: establishing a stable, Western-oriented government for all of Iraq." He added that "the government in Baghdad is not an American friend, and action against ISIS will not advance U.S. interests."

Other advocates for the Iraq war need to examine the evidence and make rational decisions based on it. That's something lacking throughout Washington. Leadership means admitting our mistakes so we can correct them. We will do ourselves no favors if we simply recommit to the same mistakes and heed the advice of those who made them in the first place.

Mr. Paul is a Republican senator from Kentucky.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...war-1403219558
Posts: 50,725
Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 09:42 AM   #2
Taco John Taco John is offline
12on Paul
 
Taco John's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2001
Casino cash: $10100920
Gotta say... That's what leadership looks like. I especially loved this part:

"No matter what the administration is planning, I also insist that it go through Congress. President Obama declared this war over and even asked Congress to rescind its 2002 Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq, something I agreed with. If he or others want a new war or military action, they need a new approval, from Congress, or I will oppose them."
__________________
Ehyeh asher ehyeh.
Posts: 50,725
Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 10:20 AM   #3
jiveturkey jiveturkey is offline
Captain Kick Ass
 
jiveturkey's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Kansas
Casino cash: $64491
100% agreement
Posts: 5,416
jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.jiveturkey would the whole thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 10:22 AM   #4
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
BucPatriot
 
BucEyedPea's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: None of your business
Casino cash: $108250
I clicked I agree completely.

However, we're already involved because the US and allies have funded and armed ISIS. Truly a sick FP.
__________________
“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” — James Madison
Posts: 56,263
BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 10:23 AM   #5
WhiteWhale WhiteWhale is online now
Veteran
 
WhiteWhale's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Doo-Dah
Casino cash: $42180
Every neocon on this forum is going to have something to say about this...
Posts: 4,044
WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 10:27 AM   #6
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
BucPatriot
 
BucEyedPea's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: None of your business
Casino cash: $108250
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Every neocon on this forum is going to have something to say about this...
Will they really have something to say? Or will it be the usual snark, putdowns with allegations of "anti-American", nut jobs, crazies, loons, peaceniks, or leftists? Aka nothing as usual.

Donger will try but he'll just post a bunch of questions which he's already answered in his own mind. In other words, they're not really questions.
__________________
“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” — James Madison
Posts: 56,263
BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 10:27 AM   #7
WhiteWhale WhiteWhale is online now
Veteran
 
WhiteWhale's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Doo-Dah
Casino cash: $42180
Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Will they really have something to say? Or will it be the usual snark, putdowns with allegations of "anti-American", nut jobs, crazies, loons, peaceniks, or leftists? Aka nothing as usual.
You are correct.

I should have said that they're going to make a lot of noise about it.
Posts: 4,044
WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.WhiteWhale wants to die in a aids tree fire.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 10:28 AM   #8
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
BucPatriot
 
BucEyedPea's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: None of your business
Casino cash: $108250
There now, that's better.

BTW I edited.
__________________
“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” — James Madison
Posts: 56,263
BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 10:47 AM   #9
Donger Donger is offline
"Think BOOM!"
 
Donger's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 33.675° N 106.475° W
Casino cash: $190
Mostly disagree. We should support whichever side makes the most sense to us, which is pretty much universal.
__________________
I think the young people enjoy it when I "get down," verbally, don't you?
Posts: 75,483
Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 10:54 AM   #10
LiveSteam LiveSteam is offline
All aboard the crazy train
 
LiveSteam's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: homeof43conferencetitles
Casino cash: $77808
I agree that any action should go through Congress. Obama's track record on making competent moves in foreign policy is utter fail. In 6 years this loser has yet to role a Yahtzee
Posts: 16,681
LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.LiveSteam is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 11:14 AM   #11
Raiderhader Raiderhader is offline
SteelSkull
 
Raiderhader's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Strawberry Hill
Casino cash: $639720
One side is back by this country's sworn enemy, al-Qaida, but we shouldn't choose sides. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Not choosing a side in this situation is choosing a side.

I really wanted to like Rand but, he keeps letting me down.
__________________
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, and disregard of all the rules."

-- George Orwell, Shooting an Elephant
Posts: 17,038
Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 11:22 AM   #12
Cochise Cochise is offline
MVP
 
Cochise's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Casino cash: $79954827
Convenient time for him to opine, after he offended most of his base by coming out for amnesty for illegals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
One side is back by this country's sworn enemy, al-Qaida, but we shouldn't choose sides. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Not choosing a side in this situation is choosing a side.

I really wanted to like Rand but, he keeps letting me down.
Precisely. Not choosing a side is choosing to let Al Queda win because you don't feel like it matters to us at all what happens there, even if that means Al Queda establishes a Caliphate which they dominate over the whole of Iraq and Syria.

If you want to advocate for that, fine, but do it honestly.
Posts: 41,158
Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 11:30 AM   #13
Raiderhader Raiderhader is offline
SteelSkull
 
Raiderhader's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Strawberry Hill
Casino cash: $639720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise View Post
Convenient time for him to opine, after he offended most of his base by coming out for amnesty for illegals.



Precisely. Not choosing a side is choosing to let Al Queda win because you don't feel like it matters to us at all what happens there, even if that means Al Queda establishes a Caliphate which they dominate over the whole of Iraq and Syria.

If you want to advocate for that, fine, but do it honestly.
Yep. But that isn't the only angle. As much as they would hate to do so, the current Iraqi government would out of sheer desperation take Iran up on the offer to help. So ISIS could be defeated and we would still lose because once Iran gets in there, they would not be leaving.
__________________
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, and disregard of all the rules."

-- George Orwell, Shooting an Elephant
Posts: 17,038
Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.Raiderhader threw an interception on a screen pass.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 11:32 AM   #14
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
BucPatriot
 
BucEyedPea's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: None of your business
Casino cash: $108250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
One side is back by this country's sworn enemy, al-Qaida, but we shouldn't choose sides. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Not choosing a side in this situation is choosing a side.

I really wanted to like Rand but, he keeps letting me down.
Then why is the US and allies like SA funding that side that is our enemy? Sounds like TREASON.
__________________
“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” — James Madison
Posts: 56,263
BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 11:33 AM   #15
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
BucPatriot
 
BucEyedPea's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: None of your business
Casino cash: $108250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
Yep. But that isn't the only angle. As much as they would hate to do so, the current Iraqi government would out of sheer desperation take Iran up on the offer to help. So ISIS could be defeated and we would still lose because once Iran gets in there, they would not be leaving.
Iran's been helping them anyway...and we're considering it.

I mean they're both Shias.
__________________
“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” — James Madison
Posts: 56,263
BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.