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Old 06-26-2014, 09:16 PM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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The real reason Democrats push global warming. Campaign money

Environmentalist and Democrat mega-donor accused of hypocrisy

With his increasing visibility and political involvement, San Francisco environmentalist and mega-Democratic campaign donor Tom Steyer is making Democrats a rich target for hypocrisy, critics say.

Steyer has pledged $100 million this year to elect Democrats who are committed to fighting global warming and the Keystone XL pipeline.

He was in Washington Wednesday for private meetings at the White House and to promote his "Risky Business" project, which attempts to get American business to adapt to climate change.

In a previous meeting Tuesday in New York, Steyer told reporters, "We need to reward people whose behavior reduces climate risk and penalize people who add to it."

By that measure, Steyer himself might well be due for punishment. Critics say Steyer made his fortune, in part, from fossil fuels - the very energy source he now condemns - while he was a hedge fund manager at Farallon Capital Management, a firm he founded.

"This is somebody who really made his fortune largely investing in fossil fuels who now wants to close off the ability to use fossil fuels to a lot of other people who aren't as wealthy," said Phil Kerpen, president of the conservative political action committee American Commitment.

Earlier this month, The Washington Post reported, "Steyer said in 2012 that he was halting his 'ecologically unsound' investments, a review of his ties to the $20 billion hedge fund he led for two decades shows that he is only now becoming fully divested from energy firms linked to climate change."

Kerpen has produced online ads that attack Steyer and the Democratic candidates he is supporting in the upcoming midterm elections. One ad commences with a narrator's voice saying, "Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid is on the attack..." It then cuts to a sound bite of Reid on the Senate floor saying, "What is un-American is when shadowy billionaires pour unlimited money into our democracy to rig the system..."

It is a not so subtle jab at Reid's repeated references to the Koch Brothers - the Kansas libertarian billionaires who contribute mightily to conservative causes and candidates and who are regularly demonized by Reid and other Democrats.

Asked at Tuesday's press briefing whether he had any misgivings about Steyer's visit to the White House, given the prohibition against political activities there, White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest said, "I have no misgivings about the individuals who are participating in that meeting. Their political activities notwithstanding, the administration is committed to making progress in addressing the causes of climate change and reducing carbon pollution."

In April of 2013, President Obama, and Congressional Democratic leaders Nancy Pelosi and Reid attended a fundraiser at Steyer's Bay area mansion. Kerpen said that shortly after that fundraiser, the entire Democratic party's messaging began to change.

"I think that's where the hardball really started," he said. "Because we saw a couple weeks after that the Democrats took to the Senate floor and spoke all night about climate change and Tom Steyer applauded them for that."

Some Democrats, especially those in tough re-election battles in energy rich states, are said to be fuming over the Steyer White House visit. One of them told the Washington Examiner, "If a Republican president did the same thing with the Koch brothers, we would skewer them."


Doug McKelway joined Fox News Channel (FNC) in November 2010 and serves as a Washington-based correspondent. Click here for more information on Doug McKelway.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...y-accusations/
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Old 07-01-2014, 09:34 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by lawrenceRaider View Post
Serious question. Since the main issue seems to be CO2, why have we abandoned the previous rally cry about the deforestation of the Amazon? Trees/vegetation are incredible carbon sequestration units. Surely this should be an issue. Also, I recently read an article about how fungi were many times better at carbon sequestering than previously thought, enough that they could impact the projections. Can you tell us more about any of this please?

Deforestation is estimated to only be 12%* of the carbon emissions associated with fossil fuels. We should not ignore deforestation, but by itself halting all deforestation would not get us where we need to be. All kinds of studies are underway to better understand the role of the terrestrial ecosystem in carbon sequestration and climate feedbacks, so I wouldn't say it is being ignored by scientists.

Recently we've learned that certain fungi can contribute to carbon sequestration where before we thought that fungi were predominantly decomposers that would act add CO2 to the atmosphere as they degraded dead vegetation.** My impression is that scientists previously had a good handle on the amount of stored carbon in soils, but not a good understanding of how it got there. This new understanding of the role of fungi deepens that understanding but probably isn't a finding that pushes the severity of the overall climate change problem in one direction or the other. Perhaps if we could manipulate the fungi into storing a greater fraction of carbon from decaying vegetation this could be a method of storing more carbon in soils.

*CO2 emissions from forest loss
G. R. van der Werf1, D. C. Morton2, R. S. DeFries3, J. G. J. Olivier4, P. S. Kasibhatla5, R. B. Jackson5, G. J. Collatz2 & J. T. Randerson6
Nature Geoscience 2, 737 - 738 (2009)

**Fungal Carbon Sequestration
Kathleen K. Treseder, Sandra R. Holden
Science 29 March 2013:
Vol. 339 no. 6127 pp. 1528-1529
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Old 07-01-2014, 10:14 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by digger View Post
Les Woodcock isn't a climate expert and it is obvious that he hasn't taken the time to investigate the most basic aspects of climate. He states:

"The theory is that the CO2 emitted by burning fossil fuel is the 'greenhouse gas' causes 'global warming' - in fact, water is a much more powerful greenhouse gas and there is 20 time more of it in our atmosphere (around one per cent of the atmosphere) whereas CO2 is only 0.04 per cent."

Yes, water is a more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2, but it has a very short half life in the atmosphere compared to CO2, which will persist in the atmosphere for hundreds of years. That persistence in the atmosphere makes all the difference. Let's say you could magically remove all the water vapor in the atmosphere everywhere in the world without affecting other aspects of climate. Would the planet enter an ice age? Or if you could jack up relative humidity to 100% every where in the world, would the planet really heat up? No in both cases. Why? Because in the first case, water would start evaporating from the oceans thereby restoring the water balance to what it would have been before the magical event. In the second case, as the atmosphere mixed, some areas would exceed 100% relative humidity and the water would condense and hence be removed from the atmosphere. In either event, the magical event would be erased in a matter of days. For this reason, the water content of the atmosphere is a feedback in the climate system, but it does not cause climate forcing.

In contrast, if we magically tippled the CO2 content of the atmosphere (we are actually doing this experiment right now) that CO2 would remain in the atmosphere for hundreds of years before the natural systems would remove it. It would have plenty of time to warm the planet. Therefore, CO2 represents a forcing on the earth's planet.

So if you want to think of greenhouse gases as blankets, water is a heavy blanket that you can kick off or pull up around your chin several times during the night depending on how warm or cool you feel. CO2 is a series of lighter blankets that just keep getting piled on top of one another that you cannot easily kick off.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=142
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Old 07-01-2014, 10:48 PM   #93
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Global warming is the fault of republicans...its bullshit like this that kills the message that climate changers are trying to communicate

Years from now, people gasping for air will ask how we let this happen and the GOP, sticking to its plan, will deny that anything is happening at all. Have an iced tea, y’all.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...6bd_story.html
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:12 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
What makes you think that? We have a good handle on climate before recorded history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleothermometer
I believe it's all cyclical. Nothing we've done has caused polar ice to melt. It's happened before and it will continue.

Why do I believe this? Because humans are but a microcosm to the Earth's existence.
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Old 07-02-2014, 10:51 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
Deforestation is estimated to only be 12%* of the carbon emissions associated with fossil fuels. We should not ignore deforestation, but by itself halting all deforestation would not get us where we need to be. All kinds of studies are underway to better understand the role of the terrestrial ecosystem in carbon sequestration and climate feedbacks, so I wouldn't say it is being ignored by scientists.

Recently we've learned that certain fungi can contribute to carbon sequestration where before we thought that fungi were predominantly decomposers that would act add CO2 to the atmosphere as they degraded dead vegetation.** My impression is that scientists previously had a good handle on the amount of stored carbon in soils, but not a good understanding of how it got there. This new understanding of the role of fungi deepens that understanding but probably isn't a finding that pushes the severity of the overall climate change problem in one direction or the other. Perhaps if we could manipulate the fungi into storing a greater fraction of carbon from decaying vegetation this could be a method of storing more carbon in soils.

*CO2 emissions from forest loss
G. R. van der Werf1, D. C. Morton2, R. S. DeFries3, J. G. J. Olivier4, P. S. Kasibhatla5, R. B. Jackson5, G. J. Collatz2 & J. T. Randerson6
Nature Geoscience 2, 737 - 738 (2009)

**Fungal Carbon Sequestration
Kathleen K. Treseder, Sandra R. Holden
Science 29 March 2013:
Vol. 339 no. 6127 pp. 1528-1529
Thank you. I should have said the shrill mediots are ignoring deforestation, a topic that's bothered me for a long time despite my conservative leanings. If we halted deforestation, and reversed it, wouldn't the impact be greater than 12%? I've seen wide variations on how much man's supposed impact on the current warming actually is % wise. Your opinion on that?
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:07 AM   #96
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Climate change isn't the result of just one industry or one political party. But to deny that it's happening is just beyond comprehension.

I mean, I get why politicians do it. I get why the oil lobby does it. But why on earth does a regular guy living in Kansas City have this vitriolic reaction when the OVERWHELMING majority of scientific evidence says that 7 billion people using the earth's shit and not cleaning up after themselves has... you know... consequences?
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:25 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by saphojunkie View Post
Climate change isn't the result of just one industry or one political party. But to deny that it's happening is just beyond comprehension.

I mean, I get why politicians do it. I get why the oil lobby does it. But why on earth does a regular guy living in Kansas City have this vitriolic reaction when the OVERWHELMING majority of scientific evidence says that 7 billion people using the earth's shit and not cleaning up after themselves has... you know... consequences?
Would you be willing to give up air conditioning, refrigeration and driving to save the world? Electricity generation and transportation cause the majority of CO2 emissions and these are some of the big drivers.

Oh, and are you willing to do that while the rest of the world refuses to chip in and CO2 levels continue to rise anyway?
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:31 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Would you be willing to give up air conditioning and driving to save the world?
Of course. Anyone would. The problem is that people don't believe the two are connected, so why give them up?

But I'm more interested in the economics of it. It's not exactly a free market when one industry effectively squashes any legislation that would promote competition.

There's only two ways to squash business - eliminate supply or eliminate demand.

They tried it with supply, but they were overridden. So, now they're trying with demand.
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:31 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Would you be willing to give up air conditioning, refrigeration and driving to save the world? Electricity generation and transportation cause the majority of CO2 emissions and these are some of the big drivers.

Oh, and are you willing to do that while the rest of the world refuses to chip in and CO2 levels continue to rise anyway?
Heck posting his response in this thread contributed to global warming. What does he think computers and the internet run on?
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:39 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by saphojunkie View Post
Of course. Anyone would. The problem is that people don't believe the two are connected, so why give them up?

But I'm more interested in the economics of it. It's not exactly a free market when one industry effectively squashes any legislation that would promote competition.

There's only two ways to squash business - eliminate supply or eliminate demand.

They tried it with supply, but they were overridden. So, now they're trying with demand.
Does that mean you would only do it if it was guaranteed to save the world? You ignored my second question which specifically implies that your efforts would only slow, not solve, the problem. Are you still willing to do your part?

The goal here isn't supposed to be about squashing business, it's supposed to be reducing CO2 emissions, right?
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:24 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Would you be willing to give up air conditioning, refrigeration and driving to save the world? Electricity generation and transportation cause the majority of CO2 emissions and these are some of the big drivers.

Oh, and are you willing to do that while the rest of the world refuses to chip in and CO2 levels continue to rise anyway?
I believe it is very important to keep the issues of defining the problem and solving the problem separate from one another. The logic of the deniers seems to be: 1) assume a half-baked worst-case pessimistic solution to the problem, 2) the side that the assumed solution is intolerable, 3) deny that the problem exists. This is asinine.
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:44 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
I believe it is very important to keep the issues of defining the problem and solving the problem separate from one another. The logic of the deniers seems to be: 1) assume a half-baked worst-case pessimistic solution to the problem, 2) the side that the assumed solution is intolerable, 3) deny that the problem exists. This is asinine.
Like the logic of the alarmists isn't 'if we can just get them to concede the problem our half-baked worst-case pessimistic solutions will become existential imperatives!!
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:46 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Would you be willing to give up air conditioning, refrigeration and driving to save the world? Electricity generation and transportation cause the majority of CO2 emissions and these are some of the big drivers.

Oh, and are you willing to do that while the rest of the world refuses to chip in and CO2 levels continue to rise anyway?
First, nobody is saying that giving up air conditioning, refrigeration, or driving is necessary. That's hyperbolic fear mongering.

Second, why would you say the rest of the world refuses to chip in? Other leading CO2 producers like China and India have already made commitments to reduce CO2 emissions. They have plans in place to reduce emissions by a certain percent over the next few decades. And they've even committed to more reduction than the US has committed to doing.

Third, our actions shouldn't depend on them anyway. The US in the #2 carbon emitter in the world. Our actions could have a great impact, regardless of what anyone else does. And it's not like we apply the same requirement to other areas. The rest of the world doesn't try to police the middle east like we do, but that doesn't stop us from expending incredible resources doing so regardless of the support of the rest of the world. Yet with climate change, our action is supposed to be dependent on other countries' contribution? That doesn't make much sense.
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Old 07-02-2014, 02:02 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
I believe it is very important to keep the issues of defining the problem and solving the problem separate from one another. The logic of the deniers seems to be: 1) assume a half-baked worst-case pessimistic solution to the problem, 2) the side that the assumed solution is intolerable, 3) deny that the problem exists. This is asinine.
It's all too easy for the climate change hawkish left to condemn big oil and big corp in general when they don't feel any connection to the cost of "addressing" climate change. So feel free to go on working on defining the problem. I'll leave that to you. I'm more concerned with the "solutions" and their costs.
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Old 07-02-2014, 02:15 PM   #105
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First, nobody is saying that giving up air conditioning, refrigeration, or driving is necessary. That's hyperbolic fear mongering.
I'm not fear mongering because I don't think it will ever happen. There's no reason to be fearful. But, just to see how important addressing climate change is to you, would you give up air conditioning and driving permanently if that's what someone in Washington DC decided needed to be done?

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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Second, why would you say the rest of the world refuses to chip in? Other leading CO2 producers like China and India have already made commitments to reduce CO2 emissions. They have plans in place to reduce emissions by a certain percent over the next few decades. And they've even committed to more reduction than the US has committed to doing.
Barack Obama is committed to preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. I don't believe that one either.

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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Third, our actions shouldn't depend on them anyway. The US in the #2 carbon emitter in the world. Our actions could have a great impact, regardless of what anyone else does. And it's not like we apply the same requirement to other areas. The rest of the world doesn't try to police the middle east like we do, but that doesn't stop us from expending incredible resources doing so regardless of the support of the rest of the world. Yet with climate change, our action is supposed to be dependent on other countries' contribution? That doesn't make much sense.
Assuming that reduction of CO2 emissions is the key to fixing the alleged climate change problem, we're absolutely dependent on the rest of the world helping out. Our reductions only buy time as long as the rest of the world continues to increase their emissions.

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A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
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