Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-02-2014, 06:02 PM  
Pitt Gorilla Pitt Gorilla is offline
Banned!
 
Pitt Gorilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: NOT Columbia, MO 65201
Casino cash: $10387
The Great Secession

Really like this piece by Rauch.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...ession/372288/

JONATHAN RAUCH JUN 25 2014, 9:06 PM ET

Faced with sweeping social change, conservative Christians are walling themselves off from secular society. But when religion isolates itself, both sides lose.


A few months ago, an odd news story out of St. Louis caught my eye. A Christian-owned dog-walking business had fired, so to speak, a customer who supported legalizing marijuana. “We simply said it was against the idea of being clean and sober-minded and treating your body as a temple to the Holy Spirit,” one of the service’s owners told The Huffington Post.

The service, Pack Leader, Plus (motto: “Faith. Family. Dogs.”), is not alone in its determination to shut its doors to un-Christian custom. Religious business owners have declined to provide services for gay weddings and commitment ceremonies and refused to offer insurance that covers certain kinds of contraception (as in the Hobby Lobby case that came through the Supreme Court this term). Mississippi passed legislation in April allowing businesses to claim a religious defense if sued for discrimination; Arizona almost passed such a law (after intense debate, the governor vetoed it); similar measures are in the offing elsewhere. The apparent aim of these bills is to let people like caterers, bakers, photographers, and florists decline to provide services for gay weddings or gay-pride events. But the laws are written broadly and could be used to defend discrimination of many sorts. “We’re trying to protect Missourians from attacks on their religious freedom,” the sponsor of one such bill told The Kansas City Star.

I am someone who believes that religious liberty is the country’s founding freedom, the idea that made America possible. I am also a homosexual atheist, so religious conservatives may not want my advice. I’ll give it to them anyway. Culturally conservative Christians are taking a pronounced turn toward social secession: asserting both the right and the intent to sequester themselves from secular culture and norms, including the norm of nondiscrimination. This is not a good idea. When religion isolates itself from secular society, both sides lose, but religion loses more.

Over the decades, religious traditionalists’ engagement with American secular life has waxed and waned. After the public-relations disaster of the Scopes evolution trial in the 1920s, many conservative Christians recoiled from politics, only to come out swinging in the 1970s, when the Moral Majority and other elements of what came to be called the religious right burst onto the scene. If you believe in cultural cycles, perhaps we’re due for another withdrawal. Certainly, the breakthrough of gay marriage has fed disillusionment and bewilderment. “I suspect the initial reaction among evangelicals is going to be retreat and hope to be left alone,” Maggie Gallagher, a prominent gay-marriage opponent, recently told The Huffington Post.

As far as I know, it never occurred to Catholic bakers to tell remarrying customers to take their business elsewhere.

Still, the desire to be left alone takes on a pretty aggressive cast when it involves slamming the door of a commercial enterprise on people you don’t approve of. The idea that serving as a vendor for, say, a gay commitment ceremony is tantamount to “endorsing” homosexuality, as the new religious-liberty advocates now assert, is a far-reaching proposition, one with few apparent outer boundaries in a densely interwoven mercantile society. It suggests a hair-trigger defensiveness about religious identity that would have seemed odd just a few years ago. As far as I know, during the divorce revolution it never occurred to, say, Catholic bakers to tell remarrying customers, “Your so-called second marriage is a lie, so take your business elsewhere.” That would have seemed not so much principled as bizarre.

Why the hunkering down? When I asked around recently, a few answers came back. One is the fear that traditional religious views, especially about marriage, will soon be condemned as no better than racism, and that religious dissenters will be driven from respectable society, denied government contracts, and passed over for jobs—a fear heightened by well-publicized stories like the recent one about the resignation of Mozilla’s CEO, who had donated to the campaign against gay marriage in California. After a talk I gave recently in Philadelphia on free speech, a woman approached me claiming that the school system where she works harasses and fires anyone who questions gay marriage. I wanted to point out that in most states it’s perfectly legal to fire people just for being gay, whereas Christians enjoy robust federal and state antidiscrimination protections, but the look in her eyes was too fearful for convincing. Perhaps it is natural for worried people to daydream about some kind of escape. One Christian acquaintance told me, “I say half jokingly to my wife, ‘Where do we move?’ ”

A second factor is the failed promise of what seemed, around the turn of the millennium, to be a grand new partnership between our elected and religious leaders. John DiIulio, a University of Pennsylvania political scientist, remembers that time vividly: He was the founding director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, under President George W. Bush. In 1999, he recalls, Vice President Al Gore and then–Texas Governor Bush had thrown their support behind a dramatic expansion of government’s collaboration with faith-based groups, in an effort to ameliorate social problems like poverty, hunger, and family breakdown; a new secular-religious entente seemed aborning. But trust eroded, DiIulio says, and then collapsed as factions on both sides, especially the right, drew red lines, set conditions, and lawyered up. Now it’s the “war on religion” versus the “war on women,” and court dockets are full of religious-liberty cases. (Hobby Lobby is just one in a series.) “The lines have hardened so much,” DiIulio says.

Finally, a new generation brought changed attitudes. Ed Whelan, the president of the culturally conservative Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, D.C., and a Catholic, told me, “Those of us growing up in the 1960s and 1970s grew up with an assimilationist ethic: there was assumed to be little or no tension in being a Catholic in the broader American culture. Today, those of us who are parents see conflict all over the place. And we strive to be Catholics throughout our lives. As the culture has become less hospitable to religious beliefs, there is a greater need to be more vigilant. We’ve got to figure out where to draw the lines.”

So a lot of line-drawing is going on. Even dog-walkers are drawing lines.

I must sadly acknowledge that there is an absolutist streak among some secular civil-rights advocates. They think, justifiably, that discrimination is wrong and should not be tolerated, but they are too quick to overlook the unique role religion plays in American life and the unique protections it enjoys under the First Amendment. As a matter of both political wisdom and constitutional doctrine, the faithful have every right to seek reasonable accommodations for religious conscience.

The problem is that what the social secessionists are asking for does not seem all that reasonable, especially to young Americans. When Christian businesses boycott gay weddings and pride celebrations, and when they lobby and sue for the right to do so, they may think they are sending the message “Just leave us alone.” But the message that mainstream Americans, especially young Americans, receive is very different. They hear: “What we, the faithful, really want is to discriminate. Against gays. Maybe against you or people you hold dear. Heck, against your dog.”

I wonder whether religious advocates of these opt-outs have thought through the implications. Associating Christianity with a desire—no, a determination—to discriminate puts the faithful in open conflict with the value that young Americans hold most sacred. They might as well write off the next two or three or 10 generations, among whom nondiscrimination is the 11th commandment.

There is, of course, a very different Christian tradition: a missionary tradition of engagement and education, of resolutely and even cheerfully going out into an often uncomprehending world, rather than staying home with the shutters closed. In this alternative tradition, a Christian photographer might see a same-sex wedding as an opportunity to engage and interact: a chance, perhaps, to explain why the service will be provided, but with a moral caveat or a prayer. Not every gay customer would welcome such a conversation, but it sure beats having the door slammed in your face.

This much I can guarantee: the First Church of Discrimination will find few adherents in 21st-century America. Polls find that, year by year, Americans are growing more secular. The trend is particularly pronounced among the young, many of whom have come to equate religion with intolerance. Social secession will only exacerbate that trend. It is a step toward precisely the future that brought such fear to the eyes of that woman in Philadelphia. For religious traditionalists, it is a step toward isolation and opprobrium—a step bad for society, but even worse for religion. So please, you people in St. Louis: walk those dogs, for God’s sake.
Posts: 21,842
Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Pitt Gorilla 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2014, 06:50 PM   #2
listopencil listopencil is offline
sic semper tyrannis
 
listopencil's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Partibus Infidelium
Casino cash: $10695
Nah, it works for the Amish.
__________________
"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind I'd still be in prison."


Posts: 28,798
listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2014, 07:25 PM   #3
Prison Bitch Prison Bitch is offline
FAUX-HAWKS for all!
 
Prison Bitch's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Lees summit
Casino cash: $16294
So lefties want conservative Christians to get lost from politics, but not from everyday life. Might there be a bit of a contradiction in that request?
__________________
Cardinal Nation Blog 5/29/14: "Without KC. The America League Owns The Cardinals"
Posts: 14,902
Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Prison Bitch 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2014, 08:32 PM   #4
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
BucPatriot
 
BucEyedPea's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: None of your business
Casino cash: $14628
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
Nah, it works for the Amish.
If there ever was an economic collapse the Amish would survive just fine too.
__________________
“The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the legislature.” ~ James Madison, Father of the Constitution
Posts: 58,454
BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2014, 08:34 PM   #5
ChiefsCountry ChiefsCountry is offline
Gonzo = Sexy Bitch
 
ChiefsCountry's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lake of the Ozarks
Casino cash: $14436
Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
If there ever was an economic collapse the Amish would survive just fine too.
The left must hate the Amish. People that don't need the government to survive in life.
Posts: 29,367
ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2014, 11:03 PM   #6
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
Country Santa Year Around
 
HonestChieffan's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the Country in MO
Casino cash: $9937
The first sentence is false. After that I sort of lost interest.
__________________
Frazod to KC Nitwit..."Hey, I saw a picture of some dumpy bitch with a horrible ****tarded giant back tattoo and couldn't help but think of you." Simple, Pure, Perfect. 7/31/2013

Dave Lane: "I have donated more money to people in my life as an atheist that most churches ever will."

Come home to Jesus Dave. Come home.
Posts: 28,893
HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2014, 11:13 PM   #7
ClevelandBronco ClevelandBronco is offline
Banned
 
ClevelandBronco's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Casino cash: $7738
If this homosexual atheist will come to my church and pray with me, I'll walk his ****ing poodle.
Posts: 20,437
ClevelandBronco has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 12:53 AM   #8
KChiefer KChiefer is offline
Fantastic Planeteer
 
KChiefer's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Champaign, IL
Casino cash: $6821
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry View Post
The left must hate the Amish. People that don't need the government to survive in life.
Nah, it's b/c of the horse shit on the highway.
Posts: 4,943
KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.KChiefer wants to die in a aids tree fire.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 02:26 AM   #9
Taco John Taco John is offline
12on Paul
 
Taco John's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2001
Casino cash: $7682
This is kind of a cynical article that ignores the good to focus on the bad. The gay marriage movement wouldn't be having the success it's having right now EXCEPT that it has won the support of a sizeable amount of liberal Christians.

The world literally changed overnight and here is this guy focused on a dog-walker who wants to hire people who think like he does. And his offering to the discussion? "Social secessionist." Yeah - no dog whistles there.
__________________
Ehyeh asher ehyeh.
Posts: 50,984
Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 02:32 AM   #10
listopencil listopencil is offline
sic semper tyrannis
 
listopencil's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Partibus Infidelium
Casino cash: $10695
Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
If there ever was an economic collapse the Amish would survive just fine too.
They'd be a lot better off than most Americans.
__________________
"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind I'd still be in prison."


Posts: 28,798
listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:02 AM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.