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Old 07-17-2014, 01:58 PM  
ChiefsandO'sfan ChiefsandO'sfan is offline
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Israel launches ground operation into Gaza

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/...html?hpt=hp_t2



Gaza City (CNN) -- [Breaking news update,Thursday, 3:50 p.m.]
The Israel Defense Forces initiated a ground operation into Gaza late Thursday following 10 days of bombings and airstrikes, the Israeli government said.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:34 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
There's no real endgame here that makes sense, pat.

Either the IDF is unable to take out Hamas (most likely the outcome), and will have killed a bunch of civilians for no desirable outcome.

Or the IDF will somehow manage to take out Hamas, leaving a power vacuum in Palestine that will most likely be filled by even more extremist outfits.

This is not about Hamas. It's about taking another footstep towards Greater Israel.
Greater Israel? Come on.

Israel gave up Gaza, pulled out it's Jewish settlers against their will, and gave the Gazans a thriving greenhouse industry just a decade ago in a good will gesture aimed at establishing the kernel of a peaceful two state solution. Gazans destroyed the greenhouses, elected Hamas, and went to war with Israel in response.

Here's Charles Krauthammer explaining this in more detail.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:34 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
You have a weird definition of defanged.
Perhaps. But it ain't incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
And you are glad of that, right?
I don't know why you believe that I'm cheering for Israelis to die. We must have had this conversation a hundred times.

Two state solution, '67 borders with agreed upon land swaps. Demilitarized Palestine. Jerusalem shared as a capital.

That's my endgame, as it has been from the day we first started engaging on this topic.

I'm not rooting for people to die, or for this conflict to be resolved militarily.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:35 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Fortunately for Israel, Iron Dome has brilliantly "stopped rockets from raining down on Israeli cities and prevent Israelis from living in bomb shelters," by nearly every single measure.
You don't use Iron Dome unless someone is making war on you. The objective of the ground invasion is to end the war and reset the war fighting ability of the aggressors.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:35 AM   #79
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:36 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Badly. So, how are those uber NAZIs in present day Germany?
After its defeat, Germany was well cared for, post-WWII, as the world had learned it lesson following WWI. Successful reconstruction will bring a country back into the fold.

The treatment of the Palestinians following each of these offensives is a suped-up version of how we treated Germany after WWI.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:37 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
You don't use Iron Dome unless someone is making war on you.
And?

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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The objective of the ground invasion is to end the war and reset the war fighting ability of the aggressors.
I responded to this idea, which you've successfully ignored up to this point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Either the IDF is unable to take out Hamas (most likely the outcome), and will have killed a bunch of civilians for no desirable outcome.

Or the IDF will somehow manage to take out Hamas, leaving a power vacuum in Palestine that will most likely be filled by even more extremist outfits.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:39 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Feel free to flesh out your argument. As it stands now, it's pretty flimsy.
It doesn't really require much to refute that nonsensical "defanged in every way imaginable" argument you threw against the wall.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:39 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It doesn't really require much to refute that nonsensical "defanged in every way imaginable" argument you threw against the wall.
So, punt?
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:42 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Perhaps. But it ain't incorrect.
Yes, it is incorrect. Having thousands of rockets is having fangs. Thankfully, Israel has the ability to stop the fangs from penetrating (mostly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I don't know why you believe that I'm cheering for Israelis to die. We must have had this conversation a hundred times.

Two state solution, with agreed upon land swaps. Demilitarized Palestine. Jerusalem shared as a capital.

That's my endgame, as it has been from the day we first started engaging on this topic.

I'm not rooting for people to die, or for this conflict to be resolved militarily.
I don't believe that you are cheering for Israelis to die. I just want to see you say that you are glad that Israel has Iron Dome. Are you?
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:43 AM   #85
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90%, that is their success rate. God forbid, or Allah if you so choose that one of those 10% hits you. Either way, you are in a shelter. Not fun I can guarantee you. Is there an Iron Dome outside Springfield? What would you want your military to do? Hope that you can shoot every single rocket down OR go take them out first?
My apologies KC Dan, I missed this.

It's hard to compare Israel to Springfield, because Springfield is not enmeshed in a geopolitical battle with another people who have an equal right to the land.

In general, I would want my government to ensure my safety, and work towards a peaceful resolution of whatever's going on.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:44 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Yes, it is incorrect. Having thousands of rockets is having fangs.
Having thousands of rockets that can't do shit against their enemy?

If that's what passes for fangs...

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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I don't believe that you are cheering for Israelis to die. I just want to see you say that you are glad that Israel has Iron Dome. Are you?
As I've already alluded in this thread, of course. I don't want people to die.

The fact that you believe I do is curious.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:48 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Having thousands of rockets that can't do shit against their enemy?

If that's what passes for fangs...
If the target of the snake is wearing thick leather pants that the fangs can't penetrate, the snake still has fangs, would you agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
As I've already alluded in this thread, of course. I don't want people to die.

The fact that you believe I do is curious.
I don't believe you do.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:49 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
After its defeat, Germany was well cared for, post-WWII, as the world had learned it lesson following WWI. Successful reconstruction will bring a country back into the fold.

The treatment of the Palestinians following each of these offensives is a suped-up version of how we treated Germany after WWI.
I'm sure that Israel would treat the Palestinians very well if they would just accept Israel's right to exist and want peace.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:51 AM   #89
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If the target of the snake is wearing thick leather pants that the fangs can't penetrate, the snake still has fangs, would you agree?
And this really exposes how shallow the argument for this offensive is.

If your idea of "fangs" is only meant as weaponry that could ostensibly hurt someone, well, good luck. You're never going to rid Hamas of that.

All you can hope for is ridding them of weapons that can hurt you. Which Israel has done (thanks to Western support) -- not by killing people, or the apartheid state they're enforcing, but through brilliant, effective technology.

This offensive does not help their cause. It only paves the road to Greater Israel.

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I don't believe you do.
Then stop asking me if I do. Thanks.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:52 AM   #90
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I'm sure that Israel would treat the Palestinians very well if they would just accept Israel's right to exist and want peace.
Palestinians want peace. It's Hamas that doesn't.
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