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Old 07-17-2014, 02:58 PM  
ChiefsandO'sfan ChiefsandO'sfan is offline
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Israel launches ground operation into Gaza

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/...html?hpt=hp_t2



Gaza City (CNN) -- [Breaking news update,Thursday, 3:50 p.m.]
The Israel Defense Forces initiated a ground operation into Gaza late Thursday following 10 days of bombings and airstrikes, the Israeli government said.
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:52 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
And?



I responded to this idea, which you've successfully ignored up to this point:
Your response is a false choice.

It's unlikely that IDF will completely eliminate Hamas, so a vacuum isn't likely. But it's very likely that they'll seriously erode Hamas' ability to wage war over the next few years.
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:54 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
So, punt?
Only if "punt" means successfully refute your nonsensical statement.
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:54 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Your response is a false choice.

It's unlikely that IDF will completely eliminate Hamas, so a vacuum isn't likely. But it's very likely that they'll seriously erode Hamas' ability to wage war over the next few years.
Erode their ability to do what, exactly?

Kill Israelis? That was done prior to the offensive.

Shoot rockets? I promise you that pro-Palestinian militant groups will continue doing this after the offensive, be it Hamas or somebody else.

So... what the hell are we doing?
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:55 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Only if "punt" means successfully refute your nonsensical statement.
Right.
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:55 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
And this really exposes how shallow the argument for this offensive is.

If your idea of "fangs" is only meant as weaponry that could ostensibly hurt someone, well, good luck. You're never going to rid Hamas of that.

All you can hope for is ridding them of weapons that can hurt you. Which Israel has done (thanks to Western support) -- not by killing people, or the apartheid state they're enforcing, but through brilliant, effective technology.

This offensive does not help their cause. It only paves the road to Greater Israel.
Just because one has a good defense doesn't mean you just ignore that one is being fired upon. That's just a horrible strategic position to take, honestly.

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Then stop asking me if I do. Thanks.
You might note that I haven't asked you if you want people to die. Not once.
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:57 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Palestinians want peace. It's Hamas that doesn't.
Then it's incumbent on the Palestinians to boot Hamas and negotiate a real peace. But, we all know that ain't happening any time soon
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:58 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Just because one has a good defense doesn't mean you just ignore that one is being fired upon. That's just a horrible strategic position to take, honestly.
You can (a.) set up a good defense, and (b.) create favorable conditions for safety going forward.

Israel receives an A+ for (a.), but this offensive will not do anything to change (b.), and will injure/kill thousands of powerless Palestinians in the process.

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You might note that I haven't asked you if you want people to die. Not once.
There's no need to be coy. We're both grown men.

Asking me if I'm happy Iron Dome works is the same question as asking me if I'm happy Israelis aren't being killed by Hamas rockets.

There's no need to be coy.
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:58 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Palestinians want peace. It's Hamas that doesn't.
Well, gee, perhaps they shouldn't have elected them into power.
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:58 AM   #99
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by KC Dan View Post
Then it's incumbent on the Palestinians to boot Hamas and negotiate a real peace. But, we all know that ain't happening any time soon
It won't happen any time soon, no.

Killing Palestinians for no conceivable good is not the way to do that.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:00 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
You can (a.) set up a good defense, and (b.) create favorable conditions for safety going forward.

Israel receives an A+ for (a.), but this offensive will not do anything to change (b.), and will injure/kill thousands of powerless Palestinians in the process.
Like I said, weird. But I think it's been demonstrated that the Palestinians haven't been defanged, and you just look a little silly now. I'll let it drop.

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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
There's no need to be coy. We're both grown men.

Asking me if I'm happy Iron Dome works is the same question as asking me if I'm happy Israelis aren't being killed by Hamas rockets.

There's no need to be coy.
No, it really isn't and that wasn't the intent of my question.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:00 AM   #101
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Well, gee, perhaps they shouldn't have elected them into power.
They elected them into power because they were desperate.

They correctly saw themselves being pushed off land they have occupied since time immemorial, and fear the Israelis want to push them completely off their land.

Not exactly irrational fears, are they.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:01 AM   #102
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Like I said, weird. But I think it's been demonstrated that the Palestinians haven't been defanged, and you just look a little silly now. I'll let it drop.
I'd let it drop too if I were in your shoes.

If all you're talking about is the ability to hurt someone, then you'll never rid any people of that.

If you want to make sure they can't hurt you, then mission largely accomplished.

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No, it really isn't and that wasn't the intent of my question.
I'm sure it wasn't.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:02 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
They elected them into power because they were desperate.

They correctly saw themselves being pushed off land they have occupied since time immemorial, and fear the Israelis want to push them completely off their land.

Not exactly irrational fears, are they.
Yes, they are irrational fears. Israel could obliterate the Palestinians in a day. Thankfully for the Palestinians, they show tremendous restraint even when being attacked.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:04 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'd let it drop too if I were in your shoes.

If all you're talking about is the ability to hurt someone, then you'll never rid any people of that.

If you want to make sure they can't hurt you, then mission largely accomplished.
It's about time. Yes, "fangs" are the ability to cause damage. You agree that Hamas' rockets have the ability to do damage, right?

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I'm sure it wasn't.
Good.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:05 AM   #105
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Yes, they are irrational fears. Israel could obliterate the Palestinians in a day.
They couldn't, politically. Israel needs American support, and genocide would compromise that, if not eradicate it altogether.

They could, however, slowly grind Palestine away. The US is apparently perfectly fine with that.

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Thankfully for the Palestinians, they show tremendous restraint even when being attacked.
Refusing to commit genocide isn't tremendous restraint.
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