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Old 07-27-2014, 02:14 PM  
suzzer99 suzzer99 is offline
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Arguing in this forum really is futile

Published study: pointing out factual errors in people's beliefs may actually make them MORE likely to continue believing

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In a 2010 study, Nyhan and Reifler asked people to read a fake newspaper article containing a real quotation of George W. Bush, in which the former president asserted that his tax cuts "helped increase revenues to the Treasury." In some versions of the article, this false claim was then debunked by economic evidence: A correction appended to the end of the article stated that in fact, the Bush tax cuts "were followed by an unprecedented three-year decline in nominal tax revenues, from $2 trillion in 2000 to $1.8 trillion in 2003." The study found that conservatives who read the correction were twice as likely to believe Bush's claim was true as were conservatives who did not read the correction.

...

Another notorious political falsehood is Sarah Palin's claim that Obamacare would create "death panels." To test whether they could undo the damage caused by this highly influential morsel of misinformation, Nyhan and his colleagues had study subjects read an article about the "death panels" claim, which in some cases ended with a factual correction explaining that "nonpartisan health care experts have concluded that Palin is wrong." Among survey respondents who were very pro-Palin and who had a high level of political knowledge, the correction actually made them more likely to wrongly embrace the false "death panels" theory.

...

Together, all of these studies support the theory of "motivated reasoning": The idea that our prior beliefs, commitments, and emotions drive our responses to new information, such that when we are faced with facts that deeply challenge these commitments, we fight back against them to defend our identities. So next time you feel the urge to argue back against some idiot on the internet…pause, take a deep breath, and realize not only that arguing might not do any good, but that in fact, it might very well backfire.
The bold part really rings true with me. I've been arguing politics online for a long time. I've come to the conclusion that people's political positions are 90% or more generated by nothing more than tribally identifying with one side. Of course no one thinks about themselves like that. We all think we're freethinkers who form our opinions independently based on a wide range of available objective sources. Furthermore I think this polarization is getting stronger and stronger every day with the advent of the Internet and endless sources of partisan news delivery.

I'm sure this happens on both sides. I have about half a dozen ultraliberal friends on my Facebook feed who think that Palestinians can do no wrong, and Israel can do no right. They also tend to be the same people who post about GMO and got super worked up about Trayvon Martin, like it was some seminal moment in history. Although I admit I don't know anyone stupid enough to be anti-vaccine. Or at least they don't admit it.

I think Carl Sagan can say it a lot better than me:




Last edited by suzzer99; 07-27-2014 at 02:23 PM..
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:57 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
That's not remotely what she said, nor does it remotely mean the death panels begin.
But he can see into the future, man. Cutting Medicare reimbursement rates is just the first domino.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:21 PM   #32
suzzer99 suzzer99 is offline
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Nevermind that conservatives have been against Medicare since day 1. Will they be scaring people that "Liberals are going to take away your Obamacare!" in 20 years? Probably.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:02 PM   #33
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So what the OP is saying is Rightists will be rightists, leftists will be leftists, and moderates are nowhere to be found.
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:33 PM   #34
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The main problem discussing politics is that liberals don't follow the news very closely and are much less informed about current events:

http://cfif.org/v/index.php/commenta...than-democrats
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:23 AM   #35
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So if I posted something showing this article is complete BS would you believe it?
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:47 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
That's not remotely what she said, nor does it remotely mean the death panels begin.
If you can't admit bureaucrats using monetary penalties to force hospitals to reduce admission numbers a death panel then there isn't any reason to continue the discussion.

You're the poster child for your own thread.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:52 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Nevermind that conservatives have been against Medicare since day 1. Will they be scaring people that "Liberals are going to take away your Obamacare!" in 20 years? Probably.
Again, anyone still defending Obama, democrats, and Obamacare after the blatant lies told to the public, the unlawful delays for political reasons, and what an attack on the middle class it really is, arguing is futile.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:02 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Published study: pointing out factual errors in people's beliefs may actually make them MORE likely to continue believing



The bold part really rings true with me. I've been arguing politics online for a long time. I've come to the conclusion that people's political positions are 90% or more generated by nothing more than tribally identifying with one side. Of course no one thinks about themselves like that. We all think we're freethinkers who form our opinions independently based on a wide range of available objective sources. Furthermore I think this polarization is getting stronger and stronger every day with the advent of the Internet and endless sources of partisan news delivery.

I'm sure this happens on both sides. I have about half a dozen ultraliberal friends on my Facebook feed who think that Palestinians can do no wrong, and Israel can do no right. They also tend to be the same people who post about GMO and got super worked up about Trayvon Martin, like it was some seminal moment in history. Although I admit I don't know anyone stupid enough to be anti-vaccine. Or at least they don't admit it.

I think Carl Sagan can say it a lot better than me:



**** off!
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:12 AM   #39
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I don't post in here much, but I have a few times. I will completely agree that almost all political arguments are futile. Someone has their point of view and they'll defend it, because, especially in the over saturated media world of today, you can find the news slanted the way you want it, left or right, anywhere.

Another thing, I remember in the early days of internet chats, people were much less willing to stubbornly stick to a stance regardless of what others said. I can remember frequently having chats that ended with one or the other admitting they don't have all the facts. Now, I think people still don't have all the facts, but they believe that they do.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:37 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
If you can't admit bureaucrats using monetary penalties to force hospitals to reduce admission numbers a death panel then there isn't any reason to continue the discussion.

You're the poster child for your own thread.
The idea is to reduce re-admission due to not treating properly the first time. Not admission. Do you have any evidence that hospitals are turning sick people away other than... you just know it in your gut?
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:39 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Again, anyone still defending Obama, democrats, and Obamacare after the blatant lies told to the public, the unlawful delays for political reasons, and what an attack on the middle class it really is, arguing is futile.
Yes, I get that you fully believe all of the above is true. It's pretty easy when you surround yourself with media sources that re-affirm you beliefs. But the general public doesn't agree with you: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...nn-109272.html

20 years from now if Obamacare is as popular as Medicare and republicans are scaring people that liberals are going to take away their Obamacare, are you going to change your mind?
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:13 AM   #42
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Politico also leans left.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:58 AM   #43
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Which leads to another point: Any evidence presented by either side will be derided by someone by claiming that that evidence itself is biased; proof that the sky is blue would be met by accusations of meteorologists being a partisan cult. At the same time, posts from the dodgiest, most clearly one-sided blog cites will be routinely referenced and then championed, as if they were legitimate journalism. If there was any single barrier to this site having meaningful community dialogue, it would be the confusion over what makes a reliable source, and what doesn't.

*Note: This is not specifically aimed at BEP or Politico, but it reminded me of the concept. Also, I miss the King Hammy avatar.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
Which leads to another point: Any evidence presented by either side will be derided by someone by claiming that that evidence itself is biased; proof that the sky is blue would be met by accusations of meteorologists being a partisan cult. At the same time, posts from the dodgiest, most clearly one-sided blog cites will be routinely referenced and then championed, as if they were legitimate journalism. If there was any single barrier to this site having meaningful community dialogue, it would be the confusion over what makes a reliable source, and what doesn't.

*Note: This is not specifically aimed at BEP or Politico, but it reminded me of the concept. Also, I miss the King Hammy avatar.
Yup. Suzzer and I could go round and round here with neither one of us changing the others mind. Which was my point, he's exactly what his op was pointing out.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:05 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Yup. Suzzer and I could go round and round here with neither one of us changing the others mind. Which was my point, he's exactly what his op was pointing out.
and your not?
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