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Old 08-07-2014, 12:14 PM  
Bufkin Bufkin is offline
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Atheism vs Theism: A discussion between Dave and Eric

While I find myself enjoying formal debates (for nostalgic purposes), I agree with Dave that a discussion is more thought provoking and ultimately will go further on this topic.

To begin, let me identify myself when I use the term "theist". I grew up in a very strict religious household which I ran away from my senior year in high school. I identified myself as an atheist up until my sophomore year of college, when I read the Bible in its entirety following the death of my best friend. While I would argue that my belief in God and the Bible can be supported intellectually, scientifically, historically, and philosophically, I would concede that my "born-again" conversion was wholeheartedly an emotional one.

Notice I said scientifically. I love science. Even though I am a philosophy major, it was the scientific arguments for a transcendant being (or lack thereof) that got me interested in the theism vs. atheism debate. I would argue that the beauty of my specific belief (Christianity) is that our worldview is not defined by a specific theory of how life began. For the atheist, it's evolution or nothing. If Darwinian Evolution is debunked, then the atheist has precious little to lean on without invoking a designer. As a Christian, I would say that I'm agnostic on a lot of parts of macroevolution. There are a lot of questions that I have regarding the theory that seem to be unanswered. With that said, accepting the theory as true in its entirety would not affect my faith in the Bible in any way, shape, or form.

I've often said that the belief in a young Earth is about as scientifically literate as saying the distance between Texas and California is 6 inches. Francis Collins was a leader on the Human Genome Project and is on the National Institutes of Health. Alister McGrath is a molecular biophysicist who teaches at Oxford University. C.S. Lewis, is well, C.S. Lewis. What do all of these brilliant minds have in common? Not only are/were they all evengelical Christians, but all accepted the theory of evolution as true. It certainly does not contradict the Old Testament when read figuratively.

So with all of that said, now you have a basic background on my faith. What say you? Did you grow up in a household that was anti-theistic? At what age did you begin to question the belief in a higher power? And perhaps the most important question I could ask you throughout all of this, what evidence would it take for you to accept a theistic worldview?
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:03 PM   #76
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I'm also sorry to hear about your disdain for philosophy. With that said, religion and philosophy have a lot of synonymous aspects. I would encourage you to at least respond to a few of the relevant philosophical arguments to the best of your ability.
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:03 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
I told you up front that I am most certainly a layman on the theory of evolution. This is why a discussion on evolution, while interesting, wouldn't go far at all. It's also pretty irrelevant to my contentions for the existence of God, so it doesn't do me much good.

Theistic Evolution, or "BioLogos", is evolution with an intelligent designer. When I mentioned that there are certain parts of ID that I accept, it's more so the arguments for a designer. Irreducible complexity is something I've read quite a bit on, as I think it does a decent job presenting an argument for Intelligent Design. Professor John Lennox has often said that he's "agnostic" on the theory of evolution, and can certainly accept aspects of both theories. I think that's a formidable philosophy to have on the origins debate.
What is "formidable" in this philosophy?
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:04 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
I'm also sorry to hear about your disdain for philosophy. With that said, religion and philosophy have a lot of synonymous aspects. I would encourage you to at least respond to a few of the relevant philosophical arguments to the best of your ability.
What would you like me to reply to?
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:05 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
On the contrary. The Christian Church as a whole claims that the Bible is inspired and inerrant. This means that God is the one who moved through the writers Bible to communicate to us the words which God wanted us to hear.

The fact is that there are indeed copyist errors on the biblical documents, and they account for many alleged contradictions. Remember, it is the original writings that are inspired and inerrant, not the copies. The copies we have now are copies of inspired documents. The copies are not themselves "inspired", that is, they have no guarantee of being 100% textually pure.
I would think if an all might god wished to express his wishes he would have had the ability to ensure there would be more than one copy
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:05 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by RNR View Post
So you admit you have bad information fair enough carry on~
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:05 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
On the contrary. The Christian Church as a whole claims that the Bible is inspired and inerrant. This means that God is the one who moved through the writers Bible to communicate to us the words which God wanted us to hear.

The fact is that there are indeed copyist errors on the biblical documents, and they account for many alleged contradictions. Remember, it is the original writings that are inspired and inerrant, not the copies. The copies we have now are copies of inspired documents. The copies are not themselves "inspired", that is, they have no guarantee of being 100% textually pure.
So what percent would you guess are true?
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:06 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
What would you like me to reply to?
I have not presented any of the arguments except the teleological argument briefly. I still want to make sure that you're ready to advance the conversation.
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:08 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
So what percent would you guess are true?
I would say that all of the biblical documents are 98% biblically accurate, if I had to put a number on it. The 2% that is in question is mainly nothing more than spelling errors and occasional word omissions. This would therefore reduce any serious textual issues to a fraction of the 2%. Regardless, nothing affects doctrinal truths. That's probably the most essential part.
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:10 PM   #84
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No it is not. If you wish to offer this as fact you must provide the source for that conclusion. You are offering a straw foundation~
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:11 PM   #85
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No it is not. If you wish to offer this as fact you must provide the source for that conclusion. You are offering a straw foundation~
I never admitted that I had bad information. That statement is a strawman.
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:11 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by canoworms View Post
There is not direct evidence of a creator.

The evidence that the universe could have evolved from the big bang to its current state without divine intervention has never been stronger. Until the last 100 years, religion has always argued against this point of view, and many religions still do.

The evidence is consistent with the statement: if there is a creator, that being has not chosen to explicitly reveal itself to us, to date.
Did you even read my post? I did not argue against a single item you stated......not sure why you would post this directed at me, unless it is in agreement with what I stated....

I agree with MOST of your statements...


But I would just add that RELIGION is a man made concept..and that "religions' arguing against science are just MEN arguing against science...

People can use religion to argue for and against a great number of things...

But I am not talking about any particular religion...more of a theism a la albert einstein:

Quote:
Einstein referred to his belief system as "cosmic religion" and authored an eponymous article on the subject in 1954, which later became his book Ideas and Opinions in 1955

...

[He REJECTS] a conflict between science and religion, and held that cosmic religion was necessary for science.
Quote:

Albert Einstein:

[A] person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings and aspirations to which he clings because of their super-personal value. It seems to me that what is important is the force of this superpersonal content ... regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a Divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance of those super-personal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation ... In this sense religion is the age-old endeavor of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals and constantly to strengthen and extend their effect. If one conceives of religion and science according to these definitions then a conflict between them appears impossible. For science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be...[
SO, sorry if I take Einsteins point of view over Dave "The Multimillionaire who has converted 100 christians" Lane's...

But in Actually "religion" does not "argue" against science.......MEN do.
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:14 PM   #87
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I have not presented any of the arguments except the teleological argument briefly. I still want to make sure that you're ready to advance the conversation.
I just noticed the change. Gave up pussy and kicking ass I spit beer. Seriously thanks for the laugh~
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:14 PM   #88
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the" Cross and the Switchblade" d


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Old 08-09-2014, 03:14 PM   #89
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I never admitted that I had bad information. That statement is a strawman.
So you are just talking out of your ass?
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:15 PM   #90
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So you are just talking out of your ass?
No, you're attacking strawmen. I can't make it more clear. What parts of my post are you still unclear about?
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