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Old 08-07-2014, 12:14 PM  
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Atheism vs Theism: A discussion between Dave and Eric

While I find myself enjoying formal debates (for nostalgic purposes), I agree with Dave that a discussion is more thought provoking and ultimately will go further on this topic.

To begin, let me identify myself when I use the term "theist". I grew up in a very strict religious household which I ran away from my senior year in high school. I identified myself as an atheist up until my sophomore year of college, when I read the Bible in its entirety following the death of my best friend. While I would argue that my belief in God and the Bible can be supported intellectually, scientifically, historically, and philosophically, I would concede that my "born-again" conversion was wholeheartedly an emotional one.

Notice I said scientifically. I love science. Even though I am a philosophy major, it was the scientific arguments for a transcendant being (or lack thereof) that got me interested in the theism vs. atheism debate. I would argue that the beauty of my specific belief (Christianity) is that our worldview is not defined by a specific theory of how life began. For the atheist, it's evolution or nothing. If Darwinian Evolution is debunked, then the atheist has precious little to lean on without invoking a designer. As a Christian, I would say that I'm agnostic on a lot of parts of macroevolution. There are a lot of questions that I have regarding the theory that seem to be unanswered. With that said, accepting the theory as true in its entirety would not affect my faith in the Bible in any way, shape, or form.

I've often said that the belief in a young Earth is about as scientifically literate as saying the distance between Texas and California is 6 inches. Francis Collins was a leader on the Human Genome Project and is on the National Institutes of Health. Alister McGrath is a molecular biophysicist who teaches at Oxford University. C.S. Lewis, is well, C.S. Lewis. What do all of these brilliant minds have in common? Not only are/were they all evengelical Christians, but all accepted the theory of evolution as true. It certainly does not contradict the Old Testament when read figuratively.

So with all of that said, now you have a basic background on my faith. What say you? Did you grow up in a household that was anti-theistic? At what age did you begin to question the belief in a higher power? And perhaps the most important question I could ask you throughout all of this, what evidence would it take for you to accept a theistic worldview?
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:17 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by WilliamTheIrish View Post


Sorry to interrupt, but I saw this movie at the Jerry Lewis Cinema in Topeka, KS. around 1970. Pat Boone and Eric Estrada. Terrible.
Don't be talking shit about the Mau Maus~
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:19 PM   #92
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
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Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
No, you're attacking strawmen. I can't make it more clear. What parts of my post are you still unclear about?
Nothing more than where you base your entire argument from. At least I reformed your heathen ass you can thank me for that~
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:23 PM   #93
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:23 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
I would say that all of the biblical documents are 98% biblically accurate, if I had to put a number on it. The 2% that is in question is mainly nothing more than spelling errors and occasional word omissions. This would therefore reduce any serious textual issues to a fraction of the 2%. Regardless, nothing affects doctrinal truths. That's probably the most essential part.
So you adhere to the belief that the bible, OT and NT, are 98% accurate and successfully reflect the alpha and omega, unchanging god except for a bit around the edges correct?
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:26 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
I have not presented any of the arguments except the teleological argument briefly. I still want to make sure that you're ready to advance the conversation.
I want to make sure we have agreement on the differences between abiogenesis and evolution. If we don't lets finish that argument in case it comes up again or if you accept what I say as true we can move on.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:38 PM   #96
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I find it interesting that Eric Fisher, and admitted layman on evolution, seems to have his mind so made up on the subject and doesn't show much willingness to learn about it or even acknowledge that his fundamental understanding of what it entails is incorrect. Perhaps we will be surprised though.
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:51 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Did you even read my post? I did not argue against a single item you stated......not sure why you would post this directed at me, unless it is in agreement with what I stated....

I agree with MOST of your statements...
The point of your post was that atheists have "faith". I suppose if someone were to dogmatically claim that there cannot possible be a creator of the universe, that could be considered a faith based statement. My point was that it is possible to have a purely evidence based position that leaves little room for a God. "I suppose there might possibly be a God out there, but there is no evidence if on existing. If there is we know nothing about him, he doesn't seem interested in interacting with us, and it doesn't look like one is even necessary. All things considered, I'd bet against it." You could substitute unicorn for God.
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Old 08-09-2014, 04:10 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by canoworms View Post
The point of your post was that atheists have "faith". I suppose if someone were to dogmatically claim that there cannot possible be a creator of the universe, that could be considered a faith based statement. My point was that it is possible to have a purely evidence based position that leaves little room for a God. "I suppose there might possibly be a God out there, but there is no evidence if on existing. If there is we know nothing about him, he doesn't seem interested in interacting with us, and it doesn't look like one is even necessary. All things considered, I'd bet against it." You could substitute unicorn for God.
Well, you are getting into semantics and definitions but the bolded and underlined statement IS the definition of Atheism that I go by.

A= without

Theism = God Belief

-----------

Your statement in italics/underlined is what I understand the AGnostic point of view



By these definitions, Atheists do indeed have faith.


Again, I don't understand why you are directing these to me......perhaps you should read up on the matter?


*many Atheists try to hedge their bets by saying that AThiesm doesn't REALLY mean 'without God' or that there are 'stong' and 'weak' athiests etc...but these are all just semantics......it is pretty clear where the lines are between Atheism/Agnost/Theist in my mind.
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Old 08-09-2014, 04:54 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by WilliamTheIrish View Post


Sorry to interrupt, but I saw this movie at the Jerry Lewis Cinema in Topeka, KS. around 1970. Pat Boone and Eric Estrada. Terrible.
The book was better. It had to be right? Actually it was pretty horrible now that I think about it. But Pat Boone and Eric Estrada? Yikes!!
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-09-2014, 05:03 PM   #100
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Old 08-09-2014, 05:44 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Well, you are getting into semantics and definitions but the bolded and underlined statement IS the definition of Atheism that I go by.

A= without

Theism = God Belief

-----------

Your statement in italics/underlined is what I understand the AGnostic point of view



By these definitions, Atheists do indeed have faith.


Again, I don't understand why you are directing these to me......perhaps you should read up on the matter?


*many Atheists try to hedge their bets by saying that AThiesm doesn't REALLY mean 'without God' or that there are 'stong' and 'weak' athiests etc...but these are all just semantics......it is pretty clear where the lines are between Atheism/Agnost/Theist in my mind.
Those are your definitions, but they aren't universally held. According to the definitions below, I would classify myself as an agnostic atheist, since I do not affirm the proposition that "at least one god exists" and I do not know for sure whether any god exists. So I would be an example of an athiest that does not require faith to establish my state of belief.


I can't post links yet, but this is from the About Agnostism/Atheism page.

What is an Atheist?

An atheist is anyone who doesn't happen to believe in any gods, no matter what their reasons or how they approach the question of whether any gods exist. This is a very simple concept, but it's also widely misunderstood. For that reason, there are a variety of ways to state this. Atheism is: the lack of belief in gods, the absence of belief in gods, disbelief in gods, not believing in gods.

The most precise definition may be: an atheist is anyone who does not affirm the proposition "at least one god exists." Although it may seem convoluted, it has a number of important elements: there is a proposition, it's not a proposition made by atheists, and being an atheist requires nothing active or even conscious on the part of the atheist — all that's required is not "affirming" a proposition made by others.

More: Atheism Basics for Beginners

What is an Agnostic?

An agnostic is anyone who doesn't claim to know for that any gods exist or not, no matter what their reasons or how they approach the question of whether any gods exist. This is also a simple concept, but it may be as widely misunderstood as atheism is. One major problem is that atheism and agnosticism both deal questions about the existence of gods, but whereas atheism involves what a person does or does not believe, agnosticism involves what a person does or does not know. Belief and knowledge are related but nevertheless separate issues.

There's a simple test to tell if one is an agnostic or not. Do you think you know for sure if any gods exist? If so, then you're not an agnostic. Do you think you know for sure that gods do not or even cannot exist? If so, then you're not an agnostic. Everyone who can't answer "yes" to one of those questions is a person who may or may not believe in one or more gods, but since they don't also claim to know for sure they are agnostic — an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist.
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Old 08-09-2014, 06:06 PM   #102
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Agnosticism is a totally different thing. Gnosticism refers to knowledge whereas theism refers to belief. Let me break it down for you:

Gnostic Theist: Knows that god is real.

Gnostic Atheist: Knows that god is not real.

Agnostic Theist: Has faith, but does not know, that god exists.

Agnostic Atheist: Does not know if god exists, but sees no reason to believe so.

People who simply claim to be agnostic are what we call 'fence sitters'. Most atheists are also agnostic and many theists will admit they do not know with any certainty, but choose to have faith. Stop acting like it's an exclusive belief system, because it is not. It actually has nothing to do with belief.

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Old 08-09-2014, 07:03 PM   #103
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Horse shit

There are 3 categories:

1) people who believe in a God/creator

2) People who believe there is not a creator or God

3) People who are uncertain, or do not believe one way or the other....(or maybe lean in one direction but are not committed either way)

You dipshits can make up 4 or 5 or even more categories for these things and name them any combinations of what you want but you cant change those 3 positions.

I said originally it is semantics.....which is the most boring argument ever. People generally fall back on semantics when they want to try and complicate an otherwise simple concept, because they don't REALLY want a discussion.

If you break it down to the simple terms, there can ONLY be 3 positions of someone who has made their mind up and taking some sort of stand...

I don't care what you call it, but Athiest, Agnost, and Theist seems the most logical to me, but if you have 3 different terms go ahead and throw them out there.


ANy other categories have to be subcategories of those 3...Trying to make a subcategory of a merger of 2 mutually exclusive categories is confusing at best.....
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Old 08-09-2014, 07:05 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post

Gnostic Theist: Knows that god is real.

Gnostic Atheist: Knows that god is not real.

Agnostic Theist: Has faith, but does not know, that god exists.

Agnostic Atheist: Does not know if god exists, but sees no reason to believe so.


No one can "know" if God is real (or not), so you fail
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Old 08-09-2014, 07:38 PM   #105
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The thing about this topic that frustrates me the most is so many athiests think that a creator and science have to be mutually exclusive.

Like a creator couldn't create a SYSTEM wherin exists evolution, gravity, and other laws...

Ive spent a better part of my life as an Agnost...and for me people like Dave and Hitchins, who completely dismiss the spiritual or creator sieds of the argument and constantly try to 'convert' others and prove how 'stupid' they are for having a faith are just as laughable...heck...even MORE laughable than the Jehova or Mormon knocking on my door....At least the Jehova is honest and forthright....The athiest will look you straight in the face and say faith is stupid, all the while trying to 'convert' you to his faith...not seeing that he has just as much emotion and just as little logic, and is proselytizing every bit as much as the Jehova.

It's almost like extreme left wingers vs extreme right wingers, once you go around the circle from left to right it gets pretty hard to tell a NAzi from a Commie to a Fascist and basically it doesn't matter.

They're all bullshit.

"Not believing" in something isn't "faith." Silly. Any more than you have "faith" that you won't be running a marathon tonight. Or when someone tells you "holy shit, there's a ghost in my kitchen" it doesn't take any faith to NOT believe that. It is in fact, a lack of faith. A lack of faith in this person's story. A lack of faith in the concept of ghosts in general. And a general disposition that if there WERE ghosts, they probably wouldn't bother with your kitchen.
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