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Old 08-07-2014, 05:20 PM  
Donger Donger is offline
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Militants in Iraq Hit by Strikes, Kurds Say

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/wo...iraq.html?_r=0

DOHUK, Iraq — American military forces bombed at least two targets in northern Iraq on Thursday night to rout Islamist insurgents who have trapped tens of thousands of religious minorities in Kurdish areas, Kurdish officials said.

Word of the bombings, reported on Kurdish television from the city of Erbil, came as President Obama was preparing to make a statement in Washington.

Kurdish officials said the bombings targeted fighters from the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria who had seized two towns, Gwer and Mahmour. Residents who had fled those areas by car were heard honking their horns in approval. But Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said on Twitter that the reports of a U.S. airstrike were false.

Obama administration officials had said earlier in the day that Mr. Obama was considering airstrikes or airdrops of food and medicine to address a humanitarian crisis among as many as 40,000 members of religious minorities in Iraq, who have been dying of heat and thirst on a mountaintop where they took shelter after death threats from ISIS.
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Old 08-10-2014, 12:56 PM   #46
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Never trust the lessons of a Persian quitter. I know several Persian Americans and most left due to the Islamic revolution and having a western focus or at least their parents did. I never found one that was reliable in combat, particularly back in that region. Nice folks as soccer coaches and dentists and in other white bread American roles.
Turkey became so secular under its constitution under Ataturk and it's history as a crossroads that it is it's own religion to balance Islam. The Tribes still exist as they use the western boundary constructs to kill Kurds, and other non Turks under the guise of threats to the " state".
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Old 08-10-2014, 01:13 PM   #47
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Never trust the lessons of a Persian quitter. I know several Persian Americans and most left due to the Islamic revolution and having a western focus or at least their parents did. I never found one that was reliable in combat, particularly back in that region. Nice folks as soccer coaches and dentists and in other white bread American roles.
Turkey became so secular under its constitution under Ataturk and it's history as a crossroads that it is it's own religion to balance Islam. The Tribes still exist as they use the western boundary constructs to kill Kurds, and other non Turks under the guise of threats to the " state".
Considering he was 13 when he came to the states, I didn't expect him to do much fighting. His family moved due to political instability and better job options for his father who was an architect who also was fluent in English. The family was highly westernized and almost all of them left for the West when things in Iran began to go south. They weren't fleeing the Islamic Revolution specifically as much as fleeing what looked like to them the beginnings of a civil war.

What you are saying is true about Turkey but those tribes main focus is not Islam but nationalism. The identity of being a Turk instead of a Kurd, Armenian, Zazai, Persian, etc.
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Old 08-10-2014, 01:40 PM   #48
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Considering he was 13 when he came to the states, I didn't expect him to do much fighting. His family moved due to political instability and better job options for his father who was an architect who also was fluent in English. The family was highly westernized and almost all of them left for the West when things in Iran began to go south. They weren't fleeing the Islamic Revolution specifically as much as fleeing what looked like to them the beginnings of a civil war.

What you are saying is true about Turkey but those tribes main focus is not Islam but nationalism. The identity of being a Turk instead of a Kurd, Armenian, Zazai, Persian, etc.
Consistent with my points.
So I assume your buddy never served in our military or did you mean the Revolutionary Guards? The core remains the region is unstable due to Islam and Tribalism. Attempts at consolidation in the modern world, all play at ISIS central Islamist caliphate themes. That began with Nasser for Arabs/ Sunnis and Khomeini for Persians/Shia. Though Shia exist as an opposition to a Sunni caliph. Eisenhower had the French and English to play under a Cold War bipolar world, as they sought some regional colonial influence. Carter only had a bipolar Cold War and happy thoughts about change in Iran. Today, we simply leave a vacuum and prove our selfs to be another unreliable regional ally. The geography still matters and our stable allies in the region simply wait for our decisions. inshallah
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Old 08-10-2014, 02:22 PM   #49
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Consistent with my points.
So I assume your buddy never served in our military or did you mean the Revolutionary Guards? The core remains the region is unstable due to Islam and Tribalism. Attempts at consolidation in the modern world, all play at ISIS central Islamist caliphate themes. That began with Nasser for Arabs/ Sunnis and Khomeini for Persians/Shia. Though Shia exist as an opposition to a Sunni caliph. Eisenhower had the French and English to play under a Cold War bipolar world, as they sought some regional colonial influence. Carter only had a bipolar Cold War and happy thoughts about change in Iran. Today, we simply leave a vacuum and prove our selfs to be another unreliable regional ally. The geography still matters and our stable allies in the region simply wait for our decisions. inshallah
Considering he was an Iranian citizen on a permanent resident alien card until two years ago. No he did not. I don't blame anybody for fleeing a war in which either side winning would be bad for you. The ones you have to worry about are the ones that want to stay and fight.

The problem you are having is you are trying to keep it complex as a western vs. middle eastern mindset. It is much more simple then that. It is a human nature thing. It is scapegoating on a national scale.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:08 PM   #50
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Considering he was an Iranian citizen on a permanent resident alien card until two years ago. No he did not. I don't blame anybody for fleeing a war in which either side winning would be bad for you. The ones you have to worry about are the ones that want to stay and fight.

The problem you are having is you are trying to keep it complex as a western vs. middle eastern mindset. It is much more simple then that. It is a human nature thing. It is scapegoating on a national scale.
Ok, let me attempt to explain and then I’m done. Using your most recent post’s order:
1) Blame. Your emotional opinion. Swell but has no bearing beyond your feelings to this discussion. Your pal’s family left Iran that makes them Persian quitters. Apparently from you, your pal and primary reference never served any nation. That goes to credibility-yours and his. There is no requirement to be a U.S. citizen to serve in our military. In fact service facilitates citizenship. I don't know what the rules are for the Revolutionary Guards but ISIS seems to take any radical Islamist.
2) War. I don’t know which war you believe that either side winning would be bad for your pal was. I assume the 1980s Iran/ Iraq war or perhaps the 1970s Iranian Islamic Revolution. Seems like either was good for your pal, he now lives in the U.S. and is apparently successful. All under the umbrella of U.S. protection and policy. His homeland and place of birth have been in turmoil ever since his family left. The Islamists clearly won and I offer so did he. If you meant, all war is bad, fine, see just war theory, but then again that would be a western perspective.
3) Who to worry about. Thank you but with over 40 years of uniformed and civilian military service, dealing with Islamists in the Middle East and Pacific, I will decide who to worry about. Actually, I prefer that they worry about us but our policies now only cause our allies to worry due to attempts such as yours to explain complex issues into "human nature" and we are the world bullshit.
4) “My problem” Totally misrepresented or misunderstood by you. Look at the discussion trail. You brought a secular humanists perspective in as an explanation, focusing the “rage of the populace” outward, asking “why you (government) aren’t making their lives better.” What do you think the fighting is about, if not the people and their souls for the Islamists?

The “health” of a state and “citizenry being less likely to object if it is done in the name of fighting an enemy,” is pure Western psychobabble talk-speak. It offers nothing beyond proving a western arrogance and wishful thinking to understanding the conflict (s). I’m fine with that, if you also advocate either a return to colonialism as it is in western national interests and the extension of your natural selection to nations/people. Social Darwinism. (Remember WWI causes and how we have the borders we have today?) Or if you prefer us and all nations not being directly attacked to stay completely out and thus allow your self-defined simple “human nature” without governments to decide the issue.
My point remains yours is a purely a western perspective and demonstrates a lack of knowledge, understanding and synthesis of the region or its people. It is a flawed and arrogant approach cloaked in western psychology as a guise for understanding. It is self-fabricated bullshit. This includes your attempt to simplify the complex-western logic. You knew a guy that was Persian when he was 10 and therefore HOPE that human nature won’t have us “scapegoat” on a national scale- WTFO? The vast majority of Islamists rebel against your cultural concept of “human nature.” It is the very cultural war that unites them. Hell, I’d give them you if it would appease them but I know it won’t so instead I'll keep my powder dry and keep working with policy makers in order to overcome American Morons. Good luck.
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Old 08-10-2014, 06:36 PM   #51
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Old 08-10-2014, 07:49 PM   #52
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Ok, let me attempt to explain and then I’m done. Using your most recent post’s order:
Obviously you haven't actually read my posts all the way through as we shall see.

Quote:
1) Blame. Your emotional opinion. Swell but has no bearing beyond your feelings to this discussion.
Shifting the blame to outsiders is a tactic leaders have used for centuries to turn the populace's anger away from them and to someone else, probably since the dawn of humanity. No matter the culture. Hamas does it, Iran's leaders do it, the communists did it in Europe and Asia, and the fascists in Japan, Germany, Italy, Spain, and Iraq. It is a facet of the evolutionary psychology.

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Your pal’s family left Iran that makes them Persian quitters.
They are not quitters they are immigrants leaving an unstable country for a stable one. A decision any rational human would make. Maybe that speaks to your irrationality.

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Apparently from you, your pal and primary reference never served any nation. That goes to credibility-yours and his. There is no requirement to be a U.S. citizen to serve in our military. In fact service facilitates citizenship.
How does serving in the military make anybody more credible? Does serving in the military magically make someone tell the truth all the time? This is a total non sequitur by the way.

Also, my friend didn't get US citizenship until recently not because he couldn't. It was due to the fact that the family needed to liquidate some property that they owned still in Iran and to do that he needed an Iranian passport. He was the only one of his father and brothers that was still an Iranian citizen. The others became citizens in the early 80s. Once that property was liquidated he took the test and is a citizen now.

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I don't know what the rules are for the Revolutionary Guards but ISIS seems to take any radical Islamist.
Considering the family left before the Revolution which I noted in my posts which I guess we can determine you did not read very well. ISIS I am sure are against Kurds, Druze, Sufi, Shi'a, and other groups that are not fundamentalist Sunnis.

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2) War. I don’t know which war you believe that either side winning would be bad for your pal was.
I said that either side winning would be bad for them. So instead of supporting one side, they left. Very rational decision. They were lucky they had the means too as a lot of Iranians didn't.

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I assume the 1980s Iran/ Iraq war or perhaps the 1970s Iranian Islamic Revolution.
Considering I referenced the revolution several times over several posts, you assumed wrong. So that is strike two for you actually fully reading and understanding my posts.

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Seems like either was good for your pal, he now lives in the U.S. and is apparently successful. All under the umbrella of U.S. protection and policy.
Yeah, he lives here for free and doesn't pay taxes at all. His brothers who started businesses and employ Americans are just parasites. Please this is just a stupid comment by you.

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His homeland and place of birth have been in turmoil ever since his family left.
Well considering the turmoil was the reason the family left which I again noted in my posts. This is an obvious statement.

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The Islamists clearly won and I offer so did he.
He likes being an American but would prefer to see his homeland much freer. That is in no way contradiction.

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If you meant, all war is bad, fine, see just war theory, but then again that would be a western perspective.
There are no just wars, there are only wars of necessity. War is bad even if necessary because they destroy both lives and wealth.

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3) Who to worry about. Thank you but with over 40 years of uniformed and civilian military service, dealing with Islamists in the Middle East and Pacific, I will decide who to worry about.
You can worry about some people with no ability to defeat us militarily much less cross the Atlantic and invade us. I rather worry about what are government is doing to its own citizens in their quest to 'protect' us from the almost statistically irrelevant probability that you will die or be injured in a terrorist attack.

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Actually, I prefer that they worry about us but our policies now only cause our allies to worry due to attempts such as yours to explain complex issues into "human nature" and we are the world bullshit.
Yes because they are all the people over there are a hive mind and think exactly alike. There are complex issues but that doesn't mean that those complex don't at there core have an explanation based on human nature. Like fear and hatred of the outsider. Easier to inflame that to cover up the poor job you are doing running the tribe. Might appeal to peoples greed as well. If you kill the outsider who you hate and fear you can also take their stuff. Then there is of course plain old lust for power and peer pressure.

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4) “My problem” Totally misrepresented or misunderstood by you. Look at the discussion trail.
Its mostly you not understanding things like scapegoating and claiming to have insights but not understanding historical events.

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You brought a secular humanists perspective in as an explanation, focusing the “rage of the populace” outward, asking “why you (government) aren’t making their lives better.” What do you think the fighting is about, if not the people and their souls for the Islamists?
No, I brought a evolutionary psychology perspective. Evolutionary psychology is the study of how human behavior evolved to deal with both being higher thinking and self aware animals and social animals. Scapegoating the other is one of those behaviors and its why it is almost a constant throughout the world and history. It is a way to shift blame away from the leaders and on to someone else. Not many people are willing to go to war and even fewer are willing to go to war for religion. They tend to be sociopaths. People are willing to go to war because of fear, hatred, greed, power, and the aforementioned sociopaths.

Quote:
The “health” of a state and “citizenry being less likely to object if it is done in the name of fighting an enemy,” is pure Western psychobabble talk-speak.
No, the phrase that 'war is the health of the state' means that during war time the citizenry is less likely to object to government domination of society, less likely to object to government violating the mores established in times of peace when it comes to interaction with the populace, enables the state to direct propaganda at the populace without objection, and the citizenry is less likely to object to the government carrying out atrocities in the citizens name. Basically, in a time of war the government grows more powerful while the power of the citizen recedes. More often than not after the war the government retains more power than it had before the war. This is applicable to any society and group. It is why the Romans feared kings and the first Emperors refused to be called so and pretended to follow the old ways of the Republic.

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It offers nothing beyond proving a western arrogance and wishful thinking to understanding the conflict (s).
No, it is an explanation for why a leader would choose war and violence. Why a populace would get swept up in it.

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I’m fine with that, if you also advocate either a return to colonialism as it is in western national interests and the extension of your natural selection to nations/people. Social Darwinism. (Remember WWI causes and how we have the borders we have today?)
Another non-sequitur. Explaining war and how a leader can whip up a fervor for it does not entail advocating the following things.

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Or if you prefer us and all nations not being directly attacked to stay completely out and thus allow your self-defined simple “human nature” without governments to decide the issue.
Staying out of conflicts in which you were not attacked is actually a very good thing to do. Why waste lives and treasure in something you have nothing to do with? Britain and the US should of stayed out of WWI. We didn't so 20 years later we got to fight the encore.

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My point remains yours is a purely a western perspective and demonstrates a lack of knowledge, understanding and synthesis of the region or its people. It is a flawed and arrogant approach cloaked in western psychology as a guise for understanding. It is self-fabricated bullshit. This includes your attempt to simplify the complex-western logic. You knew a guy that was Persian when he was 10 and therefore HOPE that human nature won’t have us “scapegoat” on a national scale- WTFO? The vast majority of Islamists rebel against your cultural concept of “human nature.” It is the very cultural war that unites them. Hell, I’d give them you if it would appease them but I know it won’t so instead I'll keep my powder dry and keep working with policy makers in order to overcome American Morons. Good luck.
Are you done with moronic rant? You do understand that I was referring to the belligerents when talking about someone scapegoating on a national scale right? Maybe you should go back and read my posts.

As for your 'job'. I hope you are not being paid very well. Your posts and the complete ignorance and incomprehension of others arguments which you have displayed within make me think that whichever government you work for is all the poorer for it.

Your little death wish for me? Well, I don't wish death on you just enlightenment.
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Old 08-10-2014, 09:51 PM   #53
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This.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:12 AM   #54
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:56 AM   #55
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Looks like the Brits are finally going to drop some aid. I read that the aid packages from the US were dropped from 15000 feet with no parachutes, so they basically disintegrated when they landed. If true...what the ****??
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:04 AM   #56
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Looks like the Brits are finally going to drop some aid. I read that the aid packages from the US were dropped from 15000 feet with no parachutes, so they basically disintegrated when they landed. If true...what the ****??
Obama wanted the aid to get there fast.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:23 AM   #57
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Looks like the Brits are finally going to drop some aid. I read that the aid packages from the US were dropped from 15000 feet with no parachutes, so they basically disintegrated when they landed. If true...what the ****??
Free-drop is a method used to deliver materials and supplies that do not require parachutes. Quite often rations fall into this category; they are packed in special containers that help absorb the energy upon impact. Bottom line- you're not going to hurt an MRE-type food stable by dropping it from altitude.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:10 AM   #58
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Free-drop is a method used to deliver materials and supplies that do not require parachutes. Quite often rations fall into this category; they are packed in special containers that help absorb the energy upon impact. Bottom line- you're not going to hurt an MRE-type food stable by dropping it from altitude.
Good to know. Could be perhaps the terrain was rockier than anticipated?

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Two American aid flights have also made it to the mountain, where they have dropped off more than 36,000 meals and 7,000 gallons of drinking water to help the refugees, and last night two RAF C-130 transport planes were also on the way.

However, Iraqi officials said that much of the US aid had been “useless” because it was dropped from 15,000ft without parachutes and exploded on impact.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:02 AM   #59
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-are-dead.html



ISIS is a bad outfit. At some point they will need to be destroyed.
Not that it'll be fun, but at some point the globe is going to need to understand that they'll need to be melted to get them to go away. And that might not even work, but until the numbers of radical Muslims are so few that they can't cause problems (I don't see that day ever arriving), this "limited warfare" shit will go on.

Every religion has its few freaks, it's just the Muslim religion has a LOT more, and they appear to be very committed to their cause, and angry too. Hell, if I lived in that shit-hole of country I might not be happy either!

But yeah, I'm not sure limited warfare will work, they have to be dealt with, have some green grass planted, and allowed to wear undies that don't bind!
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:10 AM   #60
Cheater5 Cheater5 is offline
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
Good to know. Could be perhaps the terrain was rockier than anticipated?
Then they fuct up!

I've never seen or heard of water being free dropped, but always in CDS bundles with a low cost aerial delivery system (LCADS)- which includes a parachute to prevent such an occurrence. We've relied on these in Afghanistan.

No telling what might have happened- parachute malfunction, bad terrain, maybe one load burned in and these Iraqi "officials" are using it to leverage more aid.
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