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Old 08-09-2014, 11:10 PM  
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Atheism vs Theists for those that can't read.

Here have a play pen to post comments about:

1) those that can read but choose to post in the other thread anyway

2) those that can't read and choose to post multi-posts that are distracting just cuz

3) those that can not read and accept not posting there...

ITS ALL SEMANTICS!!!

Ok have you fun here. The Eric and Dave thread will end up 70,000 posts long otherwise. Have a quick one line point in the other thread feel free to post it. Let's just not have 7 conversations going at once in the other thread. Put em here.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:10 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
So why does everyone have original sin if not from Adam and Eve?
Take things literally much? I'm not sure what my first sin was. Probably lied to my parents about some shit I did when I was 2. That'd be my original sin. Jesus died for our sins, not just our original sins. THE original sin, according to the bible, as you know, was the Adam and Eve deal, which, I believe is just a story created to help people understand sin and how dissing the Lord's commands to you is bad. You have to remember, when these stories were told the first time, it was at a time when much of mankind still lived in caves and worshiped animals and gods that came from the sky, etc.

You wouldn't try to explain astronomy to a person of that time using the same language that you would if you were explaining things today. That doesn't mean the planets don't exist.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:21 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by tooge View Post
Take things literally much? I'm not sure what my first sin was. Probably lied to my parents about some shit I did when I was 2. That'd be my original sin. Jesus died for our sins, not just our original sins. THE original sin, according to the bible, as you know, was the Adam and Eve deal, which, I believe is just a story created to help people understand sin and how dissing the Lord's commands to you is bad. You have to remember, when these stories were told the first time, it was at a time when much of mankind still lived in caves and worshiped animals and gods that came from the sky, etc.

You wouldn't try to explain astronomy to a person of that time using the same language that you would if you were explaining things today. That doesn't mean the planets don't exist.
Well according to 90%+ of christians you are born with original sin. See baptists and catholics for examples.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:23 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Well according to 90%+ of christians you are born with original sin. See baptists and catholics for examples.
According to many people, man is inherently (born) selfish, evil, greedy, "bad", etc...

You seriously do not see the analogy or point of the parable?

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Old 08-14-2014, 02:24 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
If you define 'original sin' as people (mankind) are inherently bad (are born with 'sin' in their hearts), even scientists, philosophers and literary masters have this debate all of the time...(IOW use the story of eating the apple as a parable like many do)

Now this is just my opinion, I'm not Christian but personally I can see how the 'original sin' parable is just a way of examining the inherent greed, violence, selfishness and will to survive / thrive even at the expense of others and at the expense of nature/mother earth.

Jesus was an example of someone who did the exact opposite of these basic instincts (original sins / functional evolutionary traits) ... and therefore Christians study and learn from him in order to model their lives after him and try to overcome these 'sins'

I mean it really isn't that hard to figure out..I don't understand why all of these 'smart' people have such a tough time with very basic ideas....personally I think there is a lot of dishonesty involved...intentionally being obtuse, for the sake of debate...Either that or maybe some people just aren't as smart as they think they are.
From the catholics website:

Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.

From the earliest times the latter sense of the word was more common, as may be seen by St. Augustine's statement: "the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin" (De nupt. et concup., II, xxvi, 43). It is the hereditary stain that is dealt with here. As to the sin of Adam we have not to examine the circumstances in which it was committed nor make the exegesis of the third chapter of Genesis.


This is why you have to be baptised as a child to remove this original sin so if you die as an infant you don't go to hell.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:27 PM   #65
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Hi Dave. Currently at work. Will respond in depth when I get home this evening. I've enjoyed this so far.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
This is why you have to be baptised as a child to remove this original sin so if you die as an infant you don't go to hell.
I have explained this to you as simply as I can, a number of times.

There are more fundamental / orthodox ways of viewing things, but to many the "original sin" is a concept very similar to the idea that everyone has greed, lust,desires, jealousies, or "evil" or "sin" in them ....(from birth)

Modeling their lives after jesus and accepting him as dying for their sins, so that his blood might wash them clean is a way of trying to overcome these built-in desires / urges / sins.

I seriously do not think you could possibly be this dense, and since you are a known liar I am just going to assume you are pretending to be even more dumb than you really are.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:34 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Well according to 90%+ of christians you are born with original sin. See baptists and catholics for examples.
Well, I'm not 90% of either I guess. One of the wonderful things I thing God gave me was free thinking and intelligence. I think the idea of being born with original sin is absolutely absurd. A newborn is completely innocent as far as I'm concerned. They don't have any idea of evil, or good for that matter.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:37 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
I have explained this to you as simply as I can, a number of times.

There are more fundamental / orthodox ways of viewing things, but to many the "original sin" is a concept very similar to the idea that everyone has greed, lust,desires, jealousies, or "evil" or "sin" in them ....(from birth)

Modeling their lives after jesus and accepting him as dying for their sins, so that his blood might wash them clean is a way of trying to overcome these built-in desires / urges / sins.

I seriously do not think you could possibly be this dense, and since you are a known liar I am just going to assume you are pretending to be even more dumb than you really are.
this is a great post by the way. I don't think people are born that way at all. I think it is all learned or chemically, they are just whacko. However, I think the premise of cleansing your sins is spot on, at least how I believe it is.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:39 PM   #69
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Around 44% of people think that Humankind is inherently bad, according to this

http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-h...nherently-good
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:47 PM   #70
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this is a great post by the way. I don't think people are born that way at all. I think it is all learned or chemically, they are just whacko. However, I think the premise of cleansing your sins is spot on, at least how I believe it is.
I am inclined to slightly disagree.

I think everyone of us is born with desires...

We are materialistic, we are jealous, we want to **** a lot of women, we want to gather money and food, we want a bigger house, we sometimes secretly wish others to fail, we want to have all these things even if it harms those around us, and the earth etc..etc...(and no matter how hard our parents try and teach us to share and be nice, and we hide our desires)

We are born this way. I think that no matter what you 'learn' in life everyone still have some degree of this, that constantly needs to be battled.

Is this good or is this evil?

Well, from a primitive standpoint - there are many good things about this...The strong survive and thrive, giving us a better chance as a species. This improves the gene pool...etc...

However, there are some bad things too.....violence, wars, not enough resources to go around etc...

I don't personally think we learn all of this greed. I think its a combination of socialization and genetics......Like most complicated topics the answer (to me) is not 100% learned or 100% genetics, it is a complicated mix.

Therefore, I tend to think that man is born / inherently has SOME degree of 'bad'/'evil' qualities that he will struggle to overcome. I grant you, some learn to be 'better' people and some learn to be thieves and such....

But just from a functional evolutionary standpoint.... the desire to **** a lot of women, beat the shit out of our enemies and take what we need to survive is in all of us, in our DNA....thats HOW we are here, right now.
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Old 08-14-2014, 03:03 PM   #71
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I don't think a newborn has any evil at all. I think the desire that they are born with is simply a desire to survive, which even fish have. They "want" to eat because they are hungry, but really, it is because they need to in order to survive. We aren't materialistic at birth. It isn't until you have something that gives you pleasure (a toy for example), and someone else takes it away, that you feel greed. It isn't until you see someone else getting pleasure from something you don't have, that you feel jealousy or envy.

It's like the kids that are kept completely isolated, or raised by animals, or something of that nature. They don't want anything other than what is needed to survive. They have to learn all the other behaviors.
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:21 PM   #72
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Hi Dave. Currently at work. Will respond in depth when I get home this evening. I've enjoyed this so far.
I have enjoyed it to.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:39 PM   #73
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To believe that mankind has no innate qualities (good or bad) is known as the 'tabula rasa' (blank slate) theory and is considered old and outdated by modern science.

Modern theorists seem to think that there are some innate qualities, and some learned. (a more complex vision of the human personality)

Of course the percentage of innate qualities versus the percentage of learned is not agreed upon (and highly complicated such that there probably will never be a precise answer)

You are in a slim minority if you think 100% of the qualities of any person are learned.

Quote:
The view that humans acquire all or almost all their behavioral traits from ["Learning them"] was termed tabula rasa ("blank slate") by philosopher John Locke. The blank slate view proposes that humans develop only from environmental influences. This question was once considered to be an appropriate division of developmental influences, but since both types of factors are known to play interacting roles in development, most modern psychologists and other scholars of human development consider the question naive—representing an outdated state of knowledge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture


There are numerous studies that have proven genetics are a factor (many done with twins), and that a person doesn't "learn" all of their personality/behavioral traits from outside influences. It is the equivalent of say knowing that the sun is no longer the center of the universe...It isn't really in question.
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Old 08-14-2014, 06:58 PM   #74
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Atheists know this shit already. We know there are Christians that do not take these stories literally and use them as "parables".

We understand that Christians use the "Original Sin" as the parable you described, or follow and mold themselves (or try to atleast) after Jesus. We get that.

We understand believing there is an all loving god out there that really cares for them and believing their loved ones are in heaven and they will see them again can be comforting to them.

We understand that there has been some good done in the name of religion, like you said, feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, etc...Although, a religion that preaches "love" and all that, and with religious tax exemptions costing our country $71 BILLION dollars annually, they ought to do SOME good, dont ya think? (Like the non-profit charities).

That's all good.

What we dont understand is how the Christians that dont take these stories and disgusting immoral verses literally...still actually believe these collections of unoriginal "scriptures" written by anonymous authors in the middle east thousands of years ago, translated several times and put together by the Roman Empire = God is real.

We dont understand how they dont take these stories and verses literally....yet still take the actual Christian god literally.

And these "many" Christians that you speak of Pawnmo, what else do they turn into parables? What else do they not take literally? And why? You have no idea what these Christians really believe and what they dont.

These Christians still believe there is a supernatural god out there obviously and they probably still pray to this god, atleast from time to time.

There is not an asterisk next to the stories and verses that are meant to be metaphors or not taken seriously. How do you take the only "evidence" for Christianity that says there is a god out there, and use your own interpretations on it?

Why would an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity, that is apparently a very jealous deity (if you take that part of the bible literally, ha), only give us a collection of confusing, contradicting scriptures written by a few men in one little region of the world in one language, to prove that he is real and that we should all believe that he is real and no other gods?

Really? That's it? Just an ancient book full of stories and verses and historicity that aren't to be taken literally?

And again, why would ANYONE want to praise and worship a god that murders and commits genocide over and over again, is misogynist and sexist, and condones slavery and rape?

Why would ANYONE want to praise and worship a god that values simply "believing" or having "faith" that he exists over oh I dont know, being a good ****ing person? According to Christianity, if you believe that Christ Jesus died for your sins and ask for forgiveness, your ass gets to go to heaven. But if you don't believe in god and believe Christ died for your sins and ask for forgiveness, you're going to spend an ETERNITY in HELL...for simply using logic and reason that this god supposedly gave us.

Why would anyone want to believe in a system like that? Going off that, Hitler is in Heaven, while the millions of Jews he murdered are burning in hell right now.

I mean, seriously!?? People really believe this shit.

Most Christians believe god has "a plan" for us. If he does, then why ****ing pray? Why would god change his plans just for you? Why ask for prayers? Is this god all of a sudden going to change his mind by the amount of prayers he gets for something in particular? And if we are just part of his "plan", then we don't have free will.

If we have free will, then there's no plan. Which one is it?

Why would a supposedly "perfect" being have human qualities (such as jealousy, violence, anger, intolerant, homophobic, sexist, etc...)

Is it maybe because god did not create us in his own image, yet man created god in our own image?

I could go on and on...

I just don't understand how you can think rationally and logically about parts of the bible, yet not about ya know, the god this illogical book says to be true.

And if you need an ancient book and/or the teachings of Jesus in that book to be moral...you have severe issues. Same as if you need the threat of hell and the reward of heaven to be good. Its just sad. You don't need these "teachings" and you definitely don't need some of the highly immoral "morals" that is in there that we already discussed (homophobia, women's rights, etc..)

I need a cigarette.
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:03 PM   #75
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Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Priest31kc must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
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