LeBron's presence alone makes everyone on his team a significantly better shooter through his playmaking ability and the attention he draws.

I don't see Kyrie and Waiters ever getting along. A front four with love, LeBron, Waiters, Kyrie means lbj will do the majority of the work on defense. I think they will have trouble as is figuring out how to distribute touches let alone with love I the mix. Wiggins is a perfect fit because the ideal spot for him right now is a place where he can just play within a system. And I would much rather pair Wiggins with Kyrie and Waiters off the bench. Frankly, Waiters should be traded.

If you keep Wiggins, you keep the cap versatility to sign and trade a rim protector. I would much rather that then a guy like love who makes a living on the outside.

If the cavs want to go all in on winning with love in two years. Fine. I think that's total bullshit that people think they should make this trade because lbjs best years are coming to an end. Yeah, if you force him to play 40+ minutes a game because you have a big 3 and no one else can play defense, he will. If they build around a good young core, you can keep LeBron legs fresher and he can end his career as a facilitator when he loses some of his athleticism . He will be damn good at that.

And he doesn't have to play 40 minutes per game under the ideas I've been throwing out there.

Look, we're not going to agree on this, but one thing I'm trying to make you aware of is the value that Kevin Love has to this Cleveland team. When you say he "doesn't play the post" that's extremely misleading. He DOES play the post. He's just often overpowered or caught out of position by teams with especially huge and talented players up front like Memphis. And in case you're worried about some of the teams in the East, remember that he has had a lot of really good games against Chicago recently going up against Noah and Gibson.

The defense thing is a fair criticism, but again, it's not like he refuses to play defense or is incapable of refining that part of his game. Remember, he's been playing for a Rick Adelman team the past 3 seasons. It's easy for anybody to look like a huge pussy on defense. If Kyrie and Waiters get excuses for playing under Mike Brown, then Love should be granted the same excuse when it comes to his defense. If Blatt is as RustShack says he is, Kevin Love's defense isn't going to be a strong point, but it's not going to be what prevents the Cavs from winning championships, either. Especially when you consider what Love gives you.

Question, chiefzilla: If instead of Kevin Love, the trade was for Dirk Nowitzki circa the year the Mavs won the championship, would you take that? Assume that this version of Nowitzki is the same age as Love.

Love isn't far from that. He's not the ball handler that Dirk is/was, but he doesn't need to be- he's got Lebron and Kyrie. He's not just any stretch 4. He's the best one in the game.

If the Cavs are going to trade Wiggins to get Love, they might as well go all in and get Dieng as well. Gives them the rim protector they need at center. Personally, I'm willing to wait this out. Sorry T-Wolves fans, but I think the Cavs are currently bidding against themselves up to this point . If Minnesota is not happy with a deal of Waiters/Bennett and multiple 1st rounds picks (and I understand why they wouldn't be), then sit tight and see what happens, I don't think the Warriors are serious about including Thompson. I think the Wolves will get more desperate around the deadline and let him go for less. The Cavs and Wolves are playing one helluva game of chicken.

Dieng with Love?

Who are the Cavs going to trade to pull that off? Dieng would be a prime building chip for me if I'm Flip Saunders.

Dieng's value is far higher than Waiters, Thompson.

Just because LaMarcus Aldridge re-signed with Portland doesn't mean Love will do the same with Minnesota. In fact, I highly doubt it.

And unless you threw Dieng out there just to prove a point that Wiggins is more valuable than I'm making him out to be, that's pretty uninformed. A player like Dieng isn't somebody you just trade away just so you can get Andrew Wiggins.

Indeed. They would have to give up much more than what they are currently offering. More players, picks and even taking back a bad contract to make it happen. I just think the Cavs really need to shore up their center position and if they are making the move for Love, go all in and give what you can to get Dieng as well. Honestly, what I really want is for the Cavs to sit tight for a while to see what they really have in Bennett and Wiggins before they rush to complete a trade. I don't see Love being moved right away and I think the Cavs are just bidding against themselves. Many local reporters (Sam Amico) are saying that the Cavs are not open to including Wiggins in a deal and that it's just national people and Minnesota reporters that are putting this misinformation out there. Don't know for sure.

I don't think Love would return to Minnesota under any circumstances. And that's really unfortunate, because small market teams like Cleveland and Minnesota deserve to have star players too. Of course if my team can acquire him (Love) at a bargain I'd gladly add him if that puts us in the drivers seat to win a title. I'm probably over valuing Wiggins, he's not even played an NBA game yet and I'm somewhat hesitant to trade him for one of the best 4's in the NBA. I just hate to give up a great wing defender in Wiggins, who I think will be a great 2 way player in about 3 years. Luckily I don't have to make this decision. :) I know Dieng is a solid rim protector, I know the Cavs would have to add to the package of what has been reported (Wiggins/Bennett and multiple 1st's for Love). I would add more picks (players-don't know who) and take back that horrible Martin contact to attempt to add Dieng, doubt that would be enough though. He has great potential and has a cap friendly contract.

I'd just wait until the deadline when we won't have to greatly overpay. If they demand Wiggins we should demand Dieng.

Cavs don't need Love when Marcus Fizer is available.

The best 4 in the game and a second-year big who proved he's got a promising career ahead of him for a rookie who hasn't played a single ****ing game yet and draft picks.

You are the dumbest mother****er on the planet.

Having seen enough of the 3 dumb dumbs on here and the countless idiots on Miami Heat boards - Cavs fans in general are dumb asses.

Best post of entire thread directed at the Rustman.

5 stars.

You're trolling. There's no other way around it.

Love is a top 10 player in the NBA and it's not debatable. Asking for more on the Cavs end is laughable.

And no, at the trade deadline, you will have to pony up more. You're not paying less then. Teams will just rent Love for 3 months and go all out.

Great. That doesn't change the fact that his contract is expiring, he's made it known he wants out, and he's walking from Minnesota regardless. You guys are reeruned if you don't know that brings down the trade value. Maybe do some research and see what guys like Howard and Harden were traded for?

Yes, we are all the ones that are reeruned. It's not you.

It doesn't bring his trade value down when he has multiple suitors. And he'll have more at the trade deadline.

Howard was traded for actually a lot of value, but I don't expect you to know shit about the NBA.

Harden was an absurd trade and using that as some benchmark in a negotiation is absurd.

You're really showing your ass in this thread.

But the Cavs have the most to gain and the most to lose by acquiring Love so it's smart to make Saunders force that team to overpay or get market value versus maybe a team that wants to rent him for 3 months at the trade deadline if they feel they are close to make a run in the playoffs. That team wouldnt have to pay as much but he's not going to just give him to the Cavs for their shit overrated players.

LMAO

I just don't see where the Cavs pricetag would ever go down. Another team, maybe the price would be less, but Flip Saunders isn't going to basically hand Cleveland a super team just for Dion Waiters and shitbag Tristan Thompson.

True that. What a ****ing buffoon. Just give the damn beaker for Love already and the Cavs laugh their way to the bank. No way should the Wolves take the turds his homer ass suggests.

I don't care if they trade wiggins. Just don't trade Bennett

For ****s sake just deal em both and it's a solid for both parties.

Lol. Yah I know. I think he has the higher upside. They can have waiters!

So if they don't take what they are offered they just keep him and let him walk? Brilliant. T'Wolves are going to be the team that caves. Cavs are set up with or without Love.

You are really really dumb. Yeah you hold him if all you are getting in return is turds....and no they aren't "set" without him homer. You are like the dumb shit in fantasy that offers like 4 jobbers for an all star.

they let him hit FA and your shit Cavs can't afford him on the open market

so still a minor win for the Wolves and the NBA even if they get nothing.

if you are a fan of parity, that is.

Kendall Marshall claimed by the bucks. I like it.

Again, the reports are that your team is discussing RIGHT NOW the possibility of trading Wiggins for Love.

Apparently YOUR team is the team that ****ing caves, dude.

And it is smart to cave. I believe that the team who gets the best player, wins the trade.

Why the hell did the Lakers waive Marshall just to make room for Swaggy P's crappy deal?

Marshall's not that bad and I was pissed when the Wizards didn't even bring him on in that Gortat deal.

I don't get the resident Cavs fans on this board. You guys haven't ever won shit and you now have a great ****ing chance to win your first championship yet you want to freak out about trading some stupid rookie for a ****ing All-Star.

Do you want to win the NBA Championship next year or continue to be the loser Cavs?

The choice is easy..god damn

If the Caves knew Lebron was on his way, would they have drafted Embiid instead?

We don't know how to win. :) I'm going to be fine either way, sure I'd love to keep Wiggins for the future, but we have not even seen him play in the NBA. He's an unknown, where we know what we are getting with Love. I just don't want to be the Heat, 3 star players and no depth.

so you'd rather be the current Cavs? 2 star players and no depth

Two things have made me laugh the past few pages of this thread:

1) Someone said "I don't care if they trade Wiggins, just don't trade Bennett!" I hope that was a joke.

2) Someone just said Kendall Marshall wasn't "that bad." That someone must be a fantasy basketball player. Kendall Marshall is just that. Really bad. His defense is probably worse than a 6th man off of a high school varsity bench.

He's really not that good. Like with all D'Antoni PG's, his overall play is massively inflated.

He can't defend, can't hit anything but a inconsistent 3 and he's not going to be nearly as effective in whatever shitty coach the Lakers bring in next.

No I think it was Mav that said I don't care about wiggins, just don't trade Bennett. Guaranteed he meant it. He's got a little ****ing crazy in him.
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So we'll bank $60M of the Cavs' cap on three players. And trade away two #1 picks and two future first round picks. So basically you have no money left to spend on depth and no draft picks to bring anyone new in.

There are plenty of good arguments for why Love isn't the right fit. The choice isn't "easy."

These guys don't understand team sports. They just want Cleveland to do what Miami did causing LeBron to leave. They don't know that when Wiggins and Waiters live up to their potential we can go over the cap to resign them. Strapping all your cash to three people is stupid. Do it to two, and put a good team around them... Which we're doing and have the young potential to be a lot better.

You can't be this ****ing stupid. For ****'s sake, Miami was in the NBA finals this year.

Seriously, make yourself a 64 ounce anti-freeze margarita and down it all at once. Then make another, and repeat the process all over again.

Having 3 Canadiens in the rotation is a playoff death sentenc. Unload those softies while you can.

Not only that, they were in the Finals the past FOUR years, winning twice. Cleveland doesn't want that?!?

Love is a 25 year old top 15 player.

Wade is a 32 year old player on a major decline.

To act like these situations are anywhere near similar is just idiocy...or just par the course for you.

Apparently, Cleveland is very, very stupid.

Cool story bro. He took Cleveland to the finals all by himself too. He has a shit ton more talent around him this go around too.

I'd be super impressed if he got half of one of those things down...if he manages to even make another one! Hot cock, I'd be amazed.

He got two rings in Miami with that crazy "talent" model. Can't imagine why one would go that route.

Whoa. One cavs fan. Most cavs fans I know said ship wiggins out yesterday.

Wade's won a ring without LeBron. Lebron's won zero rings without Wade. Quit changing your idiotic arguments, and drink your margarita.

I'm probably ONE of the few who actually saw bennett play in college. He destroyed my tar heels. My first thought after the game was, this guy could be larry Johnson. Then was hurt and out of shape last year, playing for a coach that hates rookies. I love his potential.

Giving up young unproven guys to get a top 5 player at his position. Having LeBron love and kyrie for a minimum of 5 years is brilliant.

Okay. Keep Wiggins and give us Kyrie instead, and we'll give you Love.

There's your big 2. Have fun putting that good team around them, asshole :rolleyes:

It's abundantly clear that the failure to understand is on your end.

you know what's really abundantly clear?

IT DOESN'T ****ING MATTER IF THEY KEEP WIGGINS OR TRADE FOR LOVE

the won as soon as LeBron said "I'm coming home."

To answer your question, in general I'm not a big fan of building a big 3 where you have 3 max contracts. If Love agreed to sign for less to play with Cleveland, that would be a different story. Let's not forget that the Heat's big 3 took big paycuts to join forces. Kyrie and Lebron got max contract. Nothing indicates that Love would agree to anything less. But I'd be okay with Dirk because he plays underratedly good defense which again, you need someone who can take over while Lebron sits on the bench. And again, if I'm building a big 3, I want a rim protector. Maybe Lebron doesn't want a guy clogging the paint, but getting a guy like, for example, Hibbert on a trade... THAT feels like a complement to the Cavs skill sets, whereas Love feels more like acquiring an unbelievable asset than forcing everyone to make it work.

To me, it is a panic move to force the Cavs to win in 2-3 years disregarding that there is plenty of talent that can 1) prolong Lebron's career; 2) keep him winning in a longer window. Even with Love I think the Cavs are underdogs to win against the West. Maybe even against Chicago. And that's not what you want when your window is that tight.

The Big 3 took significant paycuts to make it happen.

As the Big 3 progressed, the depth got horrendously bad. That's what happens when you have no cap space and you traded all your picks away.

Unlike Miami, Cleveland actually has a ton of young assets. Some will bust, some will be quality depth, and some will be contributors (maybe huge contributors). A Big 3 forces you to basically liquidate all of those young guys quickly.

I know Love and Kyrie are young. But I see Cleveland ending up the same way Miami was at the end of last season. A big 3 surrounded by lousy depth forcing the big 3 to soak up an extraordinary number of minutes, and with big gaps all across the board. And I see the Cavs' depth if they get a big 3 being even worse than Miami's in 3 - 4 years.

You still aren't getting it as evidenced by this post and the last one. WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT HAPPENS 4-5 YEARS FROM NOW. The future of the Cavs is now. What part don't you get that you have only have 2 years of prime Lebron?

If Clark Hunt came to me and said I am selling my soul to win the Super Bowl next year but the next decade will be all suck I would say sign me up.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/image...s/banghead.gifhttp://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/image...s/banghead.gifhttp://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/image...s/banghead.gifhttp://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/image...s/banghead.gif

You'd rather have Hibbert than Love?

I don't know how much I like Hibbert. He was the first guy that came to mind when talking about a true rim protector. Love isn't going to fix that problem and it's something Lebron could have used badly last year. And with $60M in cap locked into 3 players, and no draft picks, good luck finding anybody. So the Cavs' future makes it almost impossible to find an even halfway decent center.

Which makes me just want to vomit that the Cavs could have had Noel last year and passed.

Lebron James is one of the game's best facilitators. After-prime Lebron is still going to be an elite player for years to come. But not if he's playing 40 minutes a night, which is what he's being set up to do with a Love super-trade.

And where is this ridiculous idea that the Cavs are going to suck if they don't sign Love? Without Love, they are still a heavy contender in the Eastern conference. I am talking about wanting a quality rim protector, and seeing what they have in their young guys. It's possible that Bennett, Kyrie, Waiters, Thompson, Wiggins will see dramatic growth this year. Why do people think it's going to take 3 years for that to happen? If you get Lebron, Kyrie, rim protector plus that kind of youth depth, plus veterans like Mike Miller and James Jones, that sounds like a good team to me. More bench depth, no major glaring gaps in the team, and you keep a lot of those draft picks that can maintain the team.

LeBron has two years left?? ROFL

Sounds like more of a reason to surround him with quality players then.

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingR...E*9**MIN*GE*25

Well according to this, Tristan Thompson is better than Love at getting contested rebounds, with Varejao not far behind. We already have James, Irving, and Waiters who can more than carry the scoring load. Why give up our depth, defenders, and potential for a name?

It's blowmo reincarnate :facepalm:

Do you have Down's Syndrome?

The problem is people think the trade is for Kevin Love and Wiggins straight up. Of course Love is a million times better in that deal. But that's not all in the deal. .

The Cavs would give up:
-Wiggins + Bennett. That's two #1 picks even if Bennett was highly over drafted
-Multiple first rounders which either help you get depth or become valuable trading chips if you want to do a sign and trade, roster dump, or trade
-$10M in cap space. With the 2015 $10M trade exception, that could easily land you a Marc Gasol or a Hibbert who might play for less than max. It will easily land you a DeAndre Jordan, Asik, or Tyson Chandler. And STILL have cap space for another big move.

What if the lineup ended up being in 2015:
Kyrie / Wiggins / Lebron / Thompson / Gasol with Waiters / Bennett / James Jones / Mike Miller / Varejao as your depth guys. Even better if you can trade Waiters and get some other assets. PLUS you probably have another $10M to make some other roster moves.

Or
Kyrie / Waiters / Lebron / Love / Varejao
Your bench depth is Miller, Jones, and Tristan Thompson and other fillers. The first two maybe 2 or 3 years left in their tank. Tristan Thompson would be forced to play out of position for Center depth. Varejao probably leaves after next year. Waiters and Kyrie may or may not get along in the starting lineup.

Sorry, not wow'ed by the second scenario. Horrible roster depth, cap strapped and missing picks to find that depth, and a glaring hole for long-term rim protection. Whatever quality depth you have becomes un-signable making this roster a disaster in year 3.

what fantasy scenario are you getting Marc Gasol exactly? Via trade? or playing the NBA2k video game? Because it's certainly not going to be on the open market for 10 million per.

Marc Gasol has no reason to play for less than the max.

I'm all about the LeBron/Wiggins combo... but I think we're going too far the other way. Love is a 26/12 guy and he's only 25 years old. Yes you have to put talent around a big three, but by the end the big three was a big one because Wade/Bosh looked out of gas. If Bosh was out there averaging 20/12 LeBron might still be with the Heat.

Love is 25 years old, about to turn 26. He shouldn't be toast in 3 years. The only other 26/12 guys to ever be traded were Jabbar and Moses Malone. We're talking about getting a guy performing at an all-time level in return.

If the Cavs sign and trade with Memphis, they can get Bird rights. They will have a $10M trade exception triggering in 2015 through the Brendan Haywood trade. If they package Waiters or Bennett or both, that's $6M per and $12M if you package both.

I am not saying that's in play. I am saying that it would not be hard to add a quality rim protector and STILL have lots of money to still throw around. So instead of Love, they could end up with Wiggins, Bennett, multiple first rounders, quality rim protector, PLUS money to spend on additional veterans.

you have a better chance of getting Kate Upton's phone number and a date than Memphis even answering the phone to consider a sign and trade of Marc Gasol to help the Cavs

My example didn't say Marc Gasol was the only answer. It was just an example to show the range of rim protectors they can look into. But to answer your question, if Memphis can't re-sign Gasol, then I don't see why they wouldn't be open to the kind of trade comp Cleveland is proposing to Minnesota which is a very good haul.

Memphis isn't going to trade Gasol because they are a legitimate contender.

And the Heat could have won with their big three if Pat Riley wasn't an overrated one who sucks the penis who chased names instead of talent. They had Patrick Beverley in house and cut him. They missed on essentially every pick they made, and Arison did not want to go over the tax, which further depleted the roster.

Again, I am pointing out that Cleveland can wait until 2015, let their Haywood $10M exception trigger, and land a quality rim protector. Gasol was just an example and is a guy I believe better complements the Cavs right now than Love.

And while you're right about the Heat, you also have to realize that the big 3 took big pay cuts. The Cavs are going to be giving max contracts to three people. The Heat gave up a few draft picks to get the Big 3. We are talking about a proposal here where the Cavs give up four #1 picks (two of them will be top 5, potentially #1 picks). And no doubt that the Heat had a lot less maneuverability to make any moves beyond the big 3. So yeah, the Big 3 the Cavs are talking about, they sure as shit better work out because it's even bigger and a shitload more expensive than the one in Miami.

The Wolves have the high ground right now. You are a complete ****ing idiot if you think otherwise.

Complete hypothetical. What if Love and his agent said the only place he'd extend his contract is in Cleveland?

And does Cleveland have to trade for Love? Can they wait until midseason to do it?

jfc. Lebron has a 2 year contract. Do you guys not understand this? Win he stays, if they don't build around him again and not win he is gone. I can't believe I have to explain this to you. You are usually smarter than this.

The current Cavs roster is probably the 2nd best team in the East and could get to the Finals because of Lebron but will get beat by the West team. Cavs with Love, Lebron and Irving win it all this upcoming season.

Pat Beverley is a piece of shit.

are you talking about the Bennett/Waiters/Scrub trade offer or if the Cavs actually offered Wiggins/Bennett for Gasol

even then, if I was Memphis I would still ask for way more. Just like the Wolves should.

And again, at least in that max contract scenario you're adding a third player who complements your players. The cavs long term need a rim protector more than they need an offensive weapon and stretch four. and no, if the cavs get into 2015 and Memphis decides not to keep him, that is not going to demand the kind of trade comp love is asking for now which is extremely aggressive.