Posnanski: The beginning of the end for the Sports Complex

[tk13]

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/nfl/kansas_city_chiefs/10093292.htm

Going, going …

Tuesday's Bistate II setback effectively rang a death knell for the Truman Sports Complex

Joe Posnanski
Kansas City Star


Wednesday afternoon, before it began to rain, I spent some time at the Truman Sports Complex. I love the place. I took the super-secret back route to get there. Everybody has a super-secret back route to the Truman Sports Complex.

Then I drove around the parking lots, and I walked around the stadiums that, even 30-plus years later, still look good. This crazy job has taken me to all but four NFL and major-league stadiums, and I can tell you there's no better place in America to watch football or baseball and no place quite like this little nexus that connects Arrowhead and Kauffman stadiums.

Well folks, the clock just started ticking on the Sports Complex.

OK, let's get this out of the way: There are many excellent reasons why four out of five counties voted down Bistate II on Tuesday (just as there are many excellent reasons why four out of five dentists choose Trident gum for their patients who chew gum).

Bistate II was an unwieldy plan; that's undeniable. Nobody seemed all that sure how the quarter-cent tax worked. A lot of money was going to “arts,” but who was that? Art Buchwald and Art Modell? Some voted it down because they thought Chiefs founder Lamar Hunt was being greedy asking for so much money to renovate Arrowhead. Others felt both Hunt and Royals owner David Glass were being greedy and should pay for their own stadium improvements (even though they don't, technically, own the stadiums).

Some voted against Bistate in some sort of roundabout effort to get a downtown baseball stadium built later. Some voted against it because they don't want their taxes raised for sports and art. Some voted against it because they don't think those stadiums need $360 million in improvements. Some voted against it because Kansas City has much bigger problems.

And, frankly, some voted against it because they don't care one bit about Kansas City.

Hey, people had their reasons, and I'm not here to second-guess that. But I do want everybody to understand what happened Tuesday night — a time bomb was set at the Truman Sports Complex. It will go off at some point.

Yes this great complex, which is 10 minutes from downtown and has the best parking setup in professional sports and has almost magical in-and-out traffic and features two of the great stadiums anywhere, is going to die now. It's only a matter of time.

See, Tuesday everybody in the metro area had a chance to vote for improvements to those stadiums, improvements that would have modernized the complex and locked in the Chiefs and Royals for 25 years. People voted no. That was that.

So now what? Well, now the Chiefs say they want a new stadium (Kansas City, I would like to introduce you to a new term: Personal Seat License).

Meanwhile, the Royals won't say that they need a new stadium; they only say they plan to fulfill their lease — 10 years and counting. You get the feeling that Royals ownership might mark each day with a big red “X.”

What does all this mean to you? Nobody ever will come back to you asking for improvements to the Truman Sports Complex. Nope, now the target will be brand-new stadiums for everybody.

Cost of two new stadiums: More than a billion dollars.

This is all we have left now. The renovation game is over. The Royals asked to have their stadium renovated, the metro area said no, so now they will certainly go big-stadium hunting. Kansas City is the smallest market in major-league baseball. Yankees owner George Steinbrenner would not even waste his time bending down to pick up the pittance the Royals make on local television and radio. You can scream and yell and whine about David Glass all you want, but without a competitive stadium, his team has no future here.

Mark it down: If nothing is done, the Royals are gone within 10 years.

“In the end, Kansas City is going to have to do something to help itself,” baseball commissioner Bud Selig says. “Teams have to generate revenue to be successful, that's just a simple fact of life. I believe Kansas City is a major-league city. But Kansas City has to do something.”

OK, then there are those who suggest building a downtown stadium for the Royals and letting the Chiefs work out their own stadium problems. There's a good plan. It worked so well in Cleveland that the Browns left. The Chiefs are, by far the most popular game in town. The NFL is, by far, the most prestigious league in American sports. Do you want to imagine Kansas City without the Chiefs?

(There are some short-term-memory-loss people who like to ask: “Oh yeah, where will they go? There are no markets left.” I would like to offer a few phrases that might jog the memory a little: Kansas City Athletics; Kansas City Scouts; Kansas City Kings; NCAA offices; Big Eight offices; the Future Farmers of America …).

Yes, the Kansas City metro area voted down a flawed bill Tuesday night. And a whole lot of people were still crowing on Wednesday. And maybe they're right. Maybe this will all turn out for the best. Maybe there will be a better plan in a couple of years. Maybe someone still will figure out a better way to renovate this complex and save people money. Maybe the same people who voted down this bill will vote to build two brand-new stadiums in great places, and Kansas City will come alive. Maybe stadiums will get built with private funds. Maybe Santa Claus will deliver stadiums. Maybe.

Of course, it is just possible that Kansas City missed the train and will not find the money to build new stadiums and will lose the Royals or Chiefs. Wednesday, I drove around the Truman Sports Complex, and I couldn't help but think that without the Royals or Chiefs this wonderful complex will feel awfully empty.

And this town will feel awfully, awfully small.

[Fairplay]

[url]http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/nfl/kansas_city_chiefs/10093292.htm[/url


Yes, the Kansas City metro area voted down a flawed bill Tuesday night. And a whole lot of people were still crowing on Wednesday. And maybe they're right. Maybe this will all turn out for the best. Maybe there will be a better plan in a couple of years. Maybe someone still will figure out a better way to renovate this complex and save people money. Maybe the same people who voted down this bill will vote to build two brand-new stadiums in great places, and Kansas City will come alive.







They need to get a bill without the arts attached to it and make it clear how the tax will be taken out. It would probably pass then.

[Demonpenz]

turning down that bill was a good thing. It's only sports

[Rausch]

turning down that bill was a good thing. It's only sports

[Redcoats58]

I will stop watching football if the Chiefs leave Kansas City Mo. I couldn't imagine the Chiefs playing in another stadium either. If the Chiefs were to get a new stadium there is no way the loudness stays the same. :shake:

[Skip Towne]

The Chiefs aren't going anywhere.

[Manila-Chief]

Could one of you explain something to me... if this tax failed .... how does Hunt think he is going to get a new stadium???

[BigRedChief]

The Chiefs aren't going anywhere.
What he said.

The Royals will take Kauffman and move it downtown.

The city will give Hunt the Truman Sports Complex and he can do with it what he wants. He can build himself a soccer stadium where Kauffman is now if he wants to.

There will be another plan and another vote. There hasn't been a team that has left a city after a "either you pass this or we are leaving" vote in a long time and this wasn't even one of those votes. It's a different enviorment than when the browns and rams moved.

[InChiefsHeaven]

I don't live down there, so I had no say and no real grasp on what the deal was anyway. I don't quite understand what the problem with Arrowhead is, I never have a problem when I'm able to get to a game. My wife hates it cuz there's not enough bathrooms for women, but other than that, what's wrong with it? I can't believe they need to trash the stadium and start again with some "Invesco" damned thing...plus, just imagine ticket prices if they build a new stadium. I personally can't really afford to go now, if a new stadium is built, I'd be done altogether...

[KCTitus]

The Royals can take a long walk off a short pier for all I care...they've been nothing short of a glorified minor league team for over a decade now and there's nothing that will ever make them competitive.

I would be saddened if the Chiefs left...it wouldnt be the same rooting for them if they were in another city.

[Mark M]

The Chiefs aren't going anywhere.

Tell that to Cleveland Browns fans ... or Baltimore Colts fans ... or Oakland Raider fans.

Why do you guys think that KC will just vote for a new baseball stadium that'll cost even more than it would have to renovate what we've got now? What makes anyone think that this town will pony up $1 BILLION dollars to build two new stadiums? What makes anyone think that Glass and/or Hunt will spend their own money to build their own stadiums when cities like San Antonio, LA, and maybe even Albuquerque would be willing to build it for them?

The problems with Arrowhead and the K are numerous -- not enough bathrooms, not enough luxury suites, the concourses are too narrow, too few concession stands, and the infrastructure (plumbing and wiring) is quickly degrading. If something isn't done soon, KC will be without a major franchise.

BTW, there is a clause in the stadium contracts that states if the stadiums are not maintained properly, then the lease is broken and the team can do/go wherever it wants.

I'm not trying to be chicken little, just trying to see it from an owner's perspective.

MM
~~:shrug:

[Mark M]

The Royals can take a long walk off a short pier for all I care...they've been nothing short of a glorified minor league team for over a decade now and there's nothing that will ever make them competitive.



Actually, a hard salary cap would be the best thing. But, other than that, the only way for them to be competitive is to generate more revenue. The best way to do that is with more luxury suites and other amenities (sp?) that bring in more cash.

Well, that and not drafting high school pitchers who blow their arms out before even making it to AAA would help ...

MM
~~:banghead:

[InChiefsHeaven]

The problems with Arrowhead and the K are numerous -- not enough bathrooms, not enough luxury suites, the concourses are too narrow, too few concession stands, and the infrastructure (plumbing and wiring) is quickly degrading. If something isn't done soon, KC will be without a major franchise.

Thanks, I was wondering what the whole deal was.

[DeepSouth]

The Chiefs aren't going anywhere.

The people in Cleveland said the same thing. They refused to build Modell a new stadium and he took his team and left. The city ended up building a new stadium anyway.

Arrowhead will have to be addressed eventually or the Chiefs could very well be gone. It might not be Lamar moving them but it could be his children.

[TEX]

The people in Cleveland said the same thing. They refused to build Modell a new stadium and he took his team and left. The city ended up building a new stadium anyway.

Arrowhead will have to be addressed eventually or the Chiefs could very well be gone. It might not be Lamar moving them but it could be his children.

As did the folks here in Houston... :hmmm:

[Ozarks-Chiefs-Fan]

even thought the royals are a bad team, they are my bad team and would hate to see them gone or not around anymore.

[the Talking Can]

Baseball will kill the Royals in a decade. There is no way, as baseball is currently constructed, that the Royals can remain in KC. Building them a stadium would be pointless. They are as good as gone.

The Chiefs are can now challenge their lease, though I doubt they will....for awhile. Hopefully, they'll bring back a better remodeling plan in a couple of years. I can't believe they put so little thought or effort into the Bi-state...were they arrogant or just stupid?

I'm pretty sure KC would pony up if it came down to an ultimatum on the Chiefs. They wouldn't like it, but they'd do it.

[Lzen]

The Royals can take a long walk off a short pier for all I care...they've been nothing short of a glorified minor league team for over a decade now and there's nothing that will ever make them competitive.

I would be saddened if the Chiefs left...it wouldnt be the same rooting for them if they were in another city.

Agreed

and....

Baseball will kill the Royals in a decade. There is no way, as baseball is currently constructed, that the Royals can remain in KC. Building them a stadium would be pointless. They are as good as gone.

The Chiefs are can now challenge their lease, though I doubt they will....for awhile. Hopefully, they'll bring back a better remodeling plan in a couple of years. I can't believe they put so little thought or effort into the Bi-state...were they arrogant or just stupid?

I'm pretty sure KC would pony up if it came down to an ultimatum on the Chiefs. They wouldn't like it, but they'd do it.

Agreed

[BigRedChief]

If the rumors are true, The leases are bankrupt in 2 years and both teams are free to leave.

[Darkwolfe]

As did the folks here in Houston... :hmmm:

Yeah, but you guys had to deal with Butt Adams there too. I lived there in the late 90's so I got to see the whole pathetic mess.

That's why:
Tennessee Titan= Usedtobes
Houston Texans= Wannabes

:D

[DaWolf]

Baseball will kill the Royals in a decade. There is no way, as baseball is currently constructed, that the Royals can remain in KC. Building them a stadium would be pointless. They are as good as gone.

Maybe, maybe not. Right now things don't look great for the Royals, but frankly it is because their management has sucked more than anything. The Oaklands and Minnesotas have taught us that if done right, a team like the Royals can win over a consistent period too. Problem is while Baird sounds good and is a nice guy, he's never put together a solid plan for the Royals and built a team who can thrive in that stadium (IE players who have high on base percentage and can run the bases and play D.) The fact that the highest paid player on our team is basically a DH is just plain stupid.

But I wouldn't be surprised if as we move along we see more changes to the way Baseball does business and during the next negotiations in a few year we see more changes instituted. The Royals right now are not in as dire a straits financially as they were before the current deal was struck. But again, bad management has led to us continuing to suck.

As to the sentiment about a new stadium and any new stadium for KC being an Invesco clone, I wouldn't be too sure of that. I understand people loathe change to something they feel is good, but we have the best sports architects in the world right there in KC, and if they go bonkers trying to come up with some kind of a dream arena for KC, they sure as hell would go bonkers to make the finest baseball and/or football stadiums in the world for KC and continuing the tradition of KC being the jewel of sports stadiums. And I highly doubt they'd go out of their way to design a soulless stadium. Would it be the same? No. And yes maybe it would be a step back in some regards. But I would not put it past them to make something even better.

That being said, I think Hunt may just be thinking out loud right now about alternatives. I wouldn't be shocked to see an improved renovation package back on the table in a couple of years, like the Lambeau thing as people have mentioned...

[Bob Dole]

Has anyone ever put together any realistic numbers involving the return on investment for the proposed improvements?

All Bob Dole has seen is unrealistic revenue increase numbers. (But Bob Dole will admit he hasn't looked too hard because he isn't affected by the tax increase and had no vote.)

[Brock]

Maybe, maybe not. Right now things don't look great for the Royals, but frankly it is because their management has sucked more than anything. The Oaklands and Minnesotas have taught us that if done right, a team like the Royals can win over a consistent period too....

It ain't about winning. It's about making a profit. MLB was willing to bust a cap into Minnesota (former World Champs) a couple of years ago.

[DaWolf]

But the thing is, and we saw a bit of it last year, if the Royals actually won like Minnesota, they'd actually start drawing a lot of fans again and make more money. The thing with Minnesota was thet they weren't drawing fans anyway AND their owner was begging for MLB to take the club off his hands. Course the players union would never go for contraction, so it didn't happen...

[ChiefsCountry]

But the thing is, and we saw a bit of it last year, if the Royals actually won like Minnesota, they'd actually start drawing a lot of fans again and make more money. The thing with Minnesota was thet they weren't drawing fans anyway AND their owner was begging for MLB to take the club off his hands. Course the players union would never go for contraction, so it didn't happen...

Very true. Put a winner at Kauffman and that stadium will be packed.

[Mark M]

Very true. Put a winner at Kauffman and that stadium will be packed.

It was during most of the 80's.

Hell, the Royals would draw more for a game than the Chiefs.

MM
~~:sulk:

[BigRedChief]

Very true. Put a winner at Kauffman and that stadium will be packed.

In baseball's current enviorment it doesnt matter how many butts you put in the seats. It's suites/tv money that decides your status in the food chain.

[DaWolf]

In baseball's current enviorment it doesnt matter how many butts you put in the seats. It's suites/tv money that decides your status in the food chain.
Which leads us back to why the Royals need an improved stadium. It would at least put them in a better position to compete with the teams in their division. Of course they're never going to reach the level of the Red Sox and the Yanks...

[shaneo69]

Management in Cincy, Milwaukee, and Pittsburgh promised their fans that a new stadium would make their teams competitive. Still hasn't happened. There is no way in hell I would ever vote to give Glass a new stadium. As bad as the Expos situation was, MLB still couldn't find any viable alternatives to Montreal. Where would Glass move the Royals to?

On the other hand, I think the Chiefs could find a place to move. However, my thought on that is......why would Lamar Hunt spend his own money to build a soccer stadium in Columbus of all places, and then refuse to contribute more money to the Chiefs stadium?

[Mr. Laz]

just another bullchit article for another Carl mouthpiece




over-dramatization at it's best ... :shake:






bistate would of passed it hadn't been such a piece of crap

[Mark M]

just another bullchit article for another Carl mouthpiece

Um ... sorry, but calling Poz a "Carl mouthpiece" is way, way off base.

Now, Rufus or Bob Gretz, okay, but not JoPo.

MM
~~:shake:

[DaWolf]

Yeah again, I still wouldn't be surprised if after some thought they came back and just tried a better thought out initiative...

[Mr. Laz]

Um ... sorry, but calling Poz a "Carl mouthpiece" is way, way off base.

Now, Rufus or Bob Gretz, okay, but not JoPo.

MM
~~:shake:

oh come on... JoPo has been kissing Carl's ass ever since Carl gave him a ride on his golf cart during last year's training camp.

Thats when carl decided to give JoPo only interview access to slam the other reporters carl didn't like.

[Mr. Laz]

He basically said that in the column.

yea.... and then surrounded it with a "Mile High" article of melodramatic donkey crap designed to try and make the people who voted against feel guilty.

[Mark M]

oh come on... JoPo has been kissing Carl's ass ever since Carl gave him a ride on his golf cart during last year's training camp.

Thats when carl decided to give JoPo only interview access to slam the other reporters carl didn't like.

Well, your certainly entitled to your opinion.

MM
~~:shrug:

[Mr. Laz]

Cost of two new stadiums: More than a billion dollars.[/B]

BS... Dallas just approve a plan for a brand new stadium that will cost the taxpayers 325 million.

they just built a new baseball stadium in Pittburgh for 225 million

325+225= 550 million

bistate was going for $1.4 billion over approximately 15 years .... with 800 million going to the stadiums and 700 million going to the Arts.



800 million to renovate old staduims or 550 million to build brand new ones?? :hmmm: :hmmm:

[dtebbe]

I have to agree that the Sports Complex has the best traffic flow of any stadium I have ever been to. Nothing sucks more that it taking 2 hours to get in and out of a stadium, or having to park in people's yards (and wondering if you car will still be there when you get back.) Take Atlanta as an example, Turner Field is a great baseball venue, but parking sucks. Most all of the lots around the park are reserved, so you have to park in shady "satellite lots" and walk 4-5 blocks to the stadium. The city cracked down on people selling parking in thier yards, so you don't even have that option any more. Philips arena and the Georgia dome are the same way. They are right in the middle of downtown, and unless you are from Atlanta and VERY familiar with downtown you will be forever getting in and out, and parking again is blocks away, expensive, and in a pretty shady area of town (although it is getting better). I don't think KC folks realize just how great the Truman sports complex is. The idea for a downtown ballpark is THE MOST RETARDED idea ever. I would agree with building a new stadium in the Truman Sports complex, but why in the hell would you move it downdown? Having I70 and I435 right by the stadium is just awesome.

One way or the other KC taxpayers need to fund the stadium refubs. I don't really care about the Royals, because I gave up MLB a long time ago. But I love the chiefs, and I love the arrowhead experience. Every out-of-town friend I bring to Arrowhead agrees that it's the best football enviroment they've ever been to. I am willing to do my part, if I could buy a PSL and get lower level tickets at a new and improved arrowhead, I would do it tomorrow. It's just too bad KC residents don't feel that srongly about thier team(s).

DT

[Mr. Laz]

I don't have the numbers... but, the taxpayers are only paying half of that stadium. Assuming you're correct, and the taxpayer burden is 325, that makes the total cost of the stadium 650.

yes ... the dallas owner is forking over 1/2 the price, with the NFL contributing 15% in a loan that is paid back with a percentage of future revenue.


but bottomline ... the taxpayers only have to pay 325 million


which was one of the reason Bistate was flawed, it only had lamar hunt paying 50 million.

[Mr. Laz]

Really? Because I thought the point of your post was that two stadiums wouldn't combine to over a billion dollars.

whatever ... if you want to argue with me just for the sake of arguing.. then knock yourself out.

but EVEN IF you want to pull a JoPo and twist the numbers

650 + 250 = 900 million

still not "over a billion"


the article is still crap


first he tries to pull at people's hearts strings with drive down memory lane "Then I drove around the parking lots" and then starting try to lay on the guilt with the complex "is going to die now. It's only a matter of time" like somehow the sporting complex is some kind of living creature and the people who voted against Bistate just "killed it"

then he breaks out the scare tactics with "(Kansas City, I would like to introduce you to a new term: Personal Seat License)." and "Mark it down: If nothing is done, the Royals are gone within 10 years." like just because bistate failed there's going to be nothing done ever again.

and then he brings out the twists and exaggeration "Cost of two new stadiums: More than a billion dollars." even thought 2 new stadiums don't need to cost "over a billion" and they sure as heck don't need to cost the taxpayers 1 billion dollars :Pinky:

and even though bistate tax that was just voted down was going to collect 1.4 billion already.


nope ... this crappola article was AT BEST misleading and exaggeration and prolly closer to lie and manipulation.

[Mark M]

650 + 250 = 900 million

still not "over a billion"

Where exactly do you get those numbers? Seriously ... the cost of a new baseball stadium is less because it's smaller, but football stadiums cost much, MUCH more. Saying that it would only cost $250 million for a new baseball stadium is nothing but a guess on your part.


first he tries to pull at people's hearts strings with drive down memory lane "Then I drove around the parking lots" and then starting try to lay on the guilt with the complex "is going to die now. It's only a matter of time" like somehow the sporting complex is some kind of living creature and the people who voted against Bistate just "killed it"

JoPo always writes this way. This issue is no different.

then he breaks out the scare tactics with "(Kansas City, I would like to introduce you to a new term: Personal Seat License)." and "Mark it down: If nothing is done, the Royals are gone within 10 years." like just because bistate failed there's going to be nothing done ever again.
Please tell me of a single new football stadium built within the last 5 years that DOESN'T have PSLs. Just one.

and then he brings out the twists and exaggeration "Cost of two new stadiums: More than a billion dollars." even thought 2 new stadiums don't need to cost "over a billion" and they sure as heck don't need to cost the taxpayers 1 billion dollars
Just as JoPo has no proof that they will (well, other than how much other state-of-the-art ballparks have cost over the last decade, and then applying that here), you have no proof that they won't cost that much.

and even though bistate tax that was voted down was going to collect 1.4 billion already.
Half of which was going to the arts, which is why I voted for it. Sorry, but I hate the fact that kids in this city get their art lessons from the back of the kids menu at Applebee's. I guess some folks don't care that art teaches individuality, helps brain development and provides an outlet for a variety of emotions and thoughts.

nope ... this crappola article was AT BEST misleading and exaggeration and prolly closer to lie and manipulation.
What stuns me is that you think this was all a prefabricated plot. JoPo simply writes from his heart. Always has, always will. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it or anything, but at least don't act as if it's some behind-the-doors scheme.

I think you've watched too many X-Files episodes ...

MM
~~;)

[Mr. Laz]

Saying that it would only cost $250 million for a new baseball stadium is nothing but a guess on your part.
im not guessing

as i said in an earlier post ... Pittsburg JUST built a stadium for 250 million
(i believe that HOK have said that a new stadium can be built for that here too. In fact, IIRC :hmmm: the HOK guy said $175 million)

and Dallas just approved a football stadium in which the taxpayers are asked to pay 350 million dollars.

im not guessing, not twisting, not making stuff up


but hey... if you and endelt like JoPo's article, your titled to you opinion.





btw- you and Endelt wouldn't by chance live in Missouri would ya? maybe in Jackson county even?

[Mark M]

btw- you and Endelt wouldn't by chance live in Missouri would ya? maybe in Jackson county even?

ROFL

Actually, I do, but ENDelt lives in Arizona.

To be honest, I wouldn't have an issue with them building a new baseball stadium out by the speedway in Wyandotte county. I'd even vote to help pay for it, so it's not a Jackson County thing for me ... it's a Kansas City metro area thing.

MM
~~:)

[Mr. Laz]

ROFL

Actually, I do, but ENDelt lives in Arizona.

To be honest, I wouldn't have an issue with them building a new baseball stadium out by the speedway in Wyandotte county. I'd even vote to help pay for it, so it's not a Jackson County thing for me ... it's a Kansas City metro area thing.

MM
~~:)
:p


well Endelt just likes to argue, so no real explanation needed there. :D



i've got no problem with improving the arts, improving the stadium for the royals and chiefs.

but i didnt like the way this tax was written, didn't like that way it was setup at all.


if they come back with a better plan, im sure it will pass.

[Mark M]

:p


well Endelt just likes to argue, so no real explanation needed there. :D



i've got no problem with improving the arts, improving the stadium for the royals and chiefs.

but i didnt like the way this tax was written, didn't like that way it was setup at all.


if they come back with a better plan, im sure it will pass.

Yeah, a LOT of people had a problem with some of the vague language in it.

I get the feeling that they won't try to pass anything concerning the stadiums. At least the Royals won't ... I seriously get the feeling he's just looking for any excuse to move the team out of KC.

I'd really like to see them try again with the arts. This town needs something other than Jamie Farr at the New Theatre Restaurant ...

MM
~~:banghead:

[KingPriest2]

im not guessing

as i said in an earlier post ... Pittsburg JUST built a stadium for 250 million
(i believe that HOK have said that a new stadium can be built for that here too. In fact, IIRC :hmmm: the HOK guy said $175 million)

and Dallas just approved a football stadium in which the taxpayers are asked to pay 350 million dollars.

im not guessing, not twisting, not making stuff up


but hey... if you and endelt like JoPo's article, your titled to you opinion.





btw- you and Endelt wouldn't by chance live in Missouri would ya? maybe in Jackson county even?



Financing:


Part of an $803M package which funded PNC Park, a new Steelers Stadium, retired the debt on Three Rivers Stadium and also razed the stadium, expanded the Convention Center, and constructed a new Pittsburgh Development Center.
The Regional Asset District (RAD) contributes $13.4M annually to finance $170M in bonds toward the project.
The county hotel tax contributes $8M annually to finance $99M in bonds.
A 5% surcharge on Pirates and Steelers tickets raises $3M annually to finance $22M in bonds.
A 1% wage tax is levied on players who do not live in the city, and will add $7M to the project.
$300M in matching funds from the state.
$36M in interest earnings.
$28M in federal infrastructure improvements.
$11M in parking revenue from leasing the convention center garage.
$45M from a Pittsburgh Investment Capital fund.
$85M from the Pirates and Steelers.
The Pirates are expected to cover operating costs (utilities and maintenance) as long as the team receives the revenues from concessions and advertising.
The Steelers may be asked to increase their commitment to the project, which might be filled by Personal Seat Licenses (PSLs).

On August 6, 1998, Pittsburgh-based PNC Bank Corp. announced that it had purchased the right to name the new Pirates ballpark "PNC Park" when it opens in 2001. Under the deal, PNC Bank, a financial services company, will pay approximately $1.5 million a year through the 2020 baseball season

[Mr. Laz]

Actually, I like to post silly bullshit. I only argue when something jumps out at me.
well i did notice that since, according to you, JoPo and i use that same "fuzzy logic" that you didn't see fit to point out your opinion about it until it was ME that said something.

and that its still ME that your point to ... even though im not the professional award winning writer that JoPo is. :rolleyes:


:hmmm:

lazarus- a silly thread on a local chiefs BBS

JoPo - a professional award winning writer in a sport page column in the kansas city star.


now where should this fuzzy logic of been notice first?



(btw - i still contend my numbers are correct :harumph: )






but hey the board is slow... we might as well argue about something :)

[Mark M]

$300M in matching funds from the state.

That will never happen in MO ... they only make the rest of the state pay for stadiums in St. Louis.

:cuss:


The Steelers may be asked to increase their commitment to the project, which might be filled by Personal Seat Licenses (PSLs).
Which is why rennovating is a MUCH better idea than building new. As soon as PSLs are issued, the whine and cheese crowd moves in and all atmosphere is lost.

Just ask Denver.

MM
~~:shake:

[KingPriest2]

Date Built 2001
Ownership
(Management) City of Pittsburgh
(Spectacor Management Group)
Surface Grass
Cost of Construction $230 million
Stadium Financing $76.5 million by Steelers.
Stadium Architect HOK Lobb
General
Contractors /
Construction Managers Huber, Hunt & Nichols
Joint Venture with Mascaro
Naming Rights H.J. Heinz Company paid $57 million over 20 years.


Tenants Pittsburgh Steelers
(NFL) 2001-Present
Pitt Panthers
(NCAA) 2001-Present
Population Base 2,200,000
On Site Parking Unknown
Nearest Airport 13 Miles

[KingPriest2]

I hope this helps.

[Mr. Laz]

Financing:

Part of an $803M package which funded PNC Park, a new Steelers Stadium, retired the debt on Three Rivers Stadium and also razed the stadium, expanded the Convention Center, and constructed a new Pittsburgh Development Center.
The Regional Asset District (RAD) contributes $13.4M annually to finance $170M in bonds toward the project.
The county hotel tax contributes $8M annually to finance $99M in bonds.
A 5% surcharge on Pirates and Steelers tickets raises $3M annually to finance $22M in bonds.
A 1% wage tax is levied on players who do not live in the city, and will add $7M to the project.
$300M in matching funds from the state.
$36M in interest earnings.
$28M in federal infrastructure improvements.
$11M in parking revenue from leasing the convention center garage.
$45M from a Pittsburgh Investment Capital fund.
$85M from the Pirates and Steelers.
The Pirates are expected to cover operating costs (utilities and maintenance) as long as the team receives the revenues from concessions and advertising.
The Steelers may be asked to increase their commitment to the project, which might be filled by Personal Seat Licenses (PSLs).

On August 6, 1998, Pittsburgh-based PNC Bank Corp. announced that it had purchased the right to name the new Pirates ballpark "PNC Park" when it opens in 2001. Under the deal, PNC Bank, a financial services company, will pay approximately $1.5 million a year through the 2020 baseball season

thanks for info... but we cant really see how much the stadium is going to cost. Looks like a broader package deal of some kind that involves paying off debt etc.

i do notice this though "$300M in matching funds from the state"


so that package basically involves 300 million in state fund ie taxes.

which means the stadium part of that is less than 300 million



unless im reading something wrong

[KingPriest2]

The Facility

Date Built 2002
Ownership
(Management) Robert Kraft
(New England Patriots)
Surface Grass
Cost of Construction $325 million
Stadium Financing Robert Kraft
Naming Rights CMGI Investments for $120 million for 15 years.
Former Name(s) CMGI Field (2002)
Other Facts

Tenant New England Patriots (NFL)
2002-Future
Population Base 4,600,000
On Site Parking 14,000
Nearest Airport 23 Miles
Retired Numbers #20 Gino Cappelletti
#57 Steve Nelson
#73 John Hannah
#78 Bruce Armstrong
#79 Jim Lee Hunt
#89 Bob Dee




Championships 1st


XXXVI
2001 2nd


XXXVIII
2004



Seating

Football 68,000
Prices
(Mean) Unknown
Luxury Suites 2,000 8-36 seaters, 8-30 seaters, 50-24 seaters, 6-16 seaters and 8-16 seaters range in price from $85,000 to $325,000 per year.
Club Seats 6,000
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
482,336 547,488 524,430

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 463,722 96.1% 0.5%
1999 461,624 96% -2.99%
1998 475,828 99% 0%
1997 477,431 99% 1.9%
1996 468,301 97% 0.3%
1995 466,743 97% -1.3%
1994 472,718 98% 30.2%
1993 362,964 75% 17.7%

1993-01 - Attendance for Foxboro Stadium, Foxboro, MA.

[KingPriest2]

The Facility

Date Built 2001
Ownership
(Management) Denver Metropolitan Football Stadium District
(Stadium Management Company)
Surface Grass
Cost of Construction $364.2 million
Stadium Financing Extended Sales Tax, 25% by Patrick Bowlen.
Architect HNTB Architects
Fentress Bradburn Architects
Burtram Bruton Architects


Football 76,125
Price
(Mean) Unknown
Luxury Suites 106 Suites
Club Seats 8,500
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
600,283 604,904

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 584,984 96.1% 1.3%
1999 577,309 95% -3.37%
1998 597,462 98% 15.8%
1997 515,851 85% -12.5%
1996 589,386 97% 1%
1995 583,510 96% 1.6%
1994 574,180 94% -2.8%
1993 590,808 97% -1.2%

[Mr. Laz]

Cost of Construction $230 million
Stadium Financing $76.5 million by Steelers.
Stadium Architect HOK Lobb
General
Contractors /
Construction Managers Huber, Hunt & Nichols
Joint Venture with Mascaro
Naming Rights H.J. Heinz Company paid $57 million over 20 years.

thanks

[KingPriest2]

The Facility

Date Built 1999
Ownership
(Management) City of Cleveland
(Cleveland Stadium Corp)
Surface Grass
Cost of Construction $283 million
Stadium Financing
Naming Rights None
Architect HOK Sport
General
Contractors /
Construction Managers Huber, Hunt & Nichols

Football 72,000
Prices
(Mean)
Luxury Suites 151
Club Seats 8,600 seats
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
583,094 586,294

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 581,544 99.2% 0.1%
1999 580,934 100% 0.0

The news is good and bad, depending on where fans sit in the new 72,000-seat stadium. Another factor is that while average ticket prices will be lower than the NFL average, they will be 28.5 percent higher than in the old Stadium. Those prices don't include the one-time cost of permanent seat licenses, which range from $250 to $1,500, before discounts.

[shaneo69]

Uh... the Columbus soccer stadium cost 25 million. Hunt committed to 50 million for the Arrowhead renovation.

Maybe the better question then is why does it only cost $28.5 mil to build a soccer stadium that holds 26,000 people, but it costs $400-$500 mil to build a football stadium?

[KingPriest2]

Date Built 2000
Ownership
(Management) Hamilton County
(Cincinnati Bengals)
Surface Grass
Cost of Construction $400 million
Stadium Financing Half-cent Sales Tax.
Naming Rights None
Architect NBBJ
Other Facts

Tenants Cincinnati Bengals
(NFL) 2000-Present
Population Base 1,000,000
On Site Parking 5,000
Nearest Airport 15 Miles
Retired Numbers #54 Bob Johnson


Seating

Football 65,535
Luxury Suites 114 Suites
Club Seats 7,620
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
453,449 422,235 479,488

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 469,992 89.6% 16.1%
1999 404,679 84% -8.92%
1998 444,335 92% 0%
1997 439,831 91% 14.9%
1996 382,774 79% -0.6%
1995 385,071 80% -7.4%
1994 415,638 86% 17.7%
1993 353,273 73% -14.5%
1992-99 - Attendance at Cinergy Field (Riverfront Stadium).

[Mr. Laz]

well (thanks to KP2 :thumb: )


we have 3 or so examples of brand new stadiums being built when the taxpayers are being asked to pay between 230- 364 million


the stadium in Dallas even has a roof on it for $350 million.


the Bistate was providing 800 million to the royals and chiefs ... 700 million to the arts.


once again i ask...


why pay 800 million to renovate old stadiums when with a good setup we can prolly build 2 NEW stadiums for 600-900 million of taxpayer money?

Bistate just wasn't right ... for 1.4 billion we should of been getting 2 brand new stadiums AND money for the ARTs.


just my opinion though i guess

[shaneo69]

well (thanks to KP2 :thumb: )


we have 3 or so examples of brand new stadiums being built when the taxpayers are being asked to pay between 230- 364 million


the stadium in Dallas even has a roof on it for $350 million.


the Bistate was providing 800 million to the royals and chiefs ... 700 million to the arts.


once again i ask...


why pay 800 million to renovate old stadiums when with a good setup we can prolly build 2 NEW stadiums for 600-900 million of taxpayer money?

Bistate just wasn't right ... for 1.4 billion we should of been getting 2 brand new stadiums AND money for the ARTs.


just my opinion though i guess

I thought Bi-State was giving $180 mil to Hunt and $180 mil to Glass?

[KingPriest2]

The Facility

Date Built 1999
Ownership
(Management) City of Nashville
(City of Nashville)
Surface Tifsport Bermuda Sod
Cost of Construction $290 million
Stadium Financing City of Nashville will finance $149.5 million from excess hotel/motel taxes and surplus funds; state will provide $70 million, $55 million in bonds repaid through sales taxes, $12 million for infrastructure and $2 million in the form of land donations.
Former Name Adelphia Coliseum
(1999-2002)
Former Naming Rights $30 million over 15-years by Adelphia Communications Corp., based in Coudersport, Pa., and is owned by Buffalo Sabres owner John Rigas.
Stadium Architect HOK Sport
Other Facts

Tenants Tennessee Titans
(NFL) 1999-Present;
Tennessee State
(NCAA)
Population Base 1,000,000
On Site Parking 7,500
Nearest Airport 6 Miles
Retired Numbers #34 Earl Campbell
#43 Jim Norton
#63 Mike Munchak
#65 Elvin Bethea
#79 Bruce Matthews


Seating

Football 67,000
Prices
(Mean) Unknown
Luxury Suites 156 Suites; leased at $50,000 to $125,000 per year.
Club Seats 11,800 seats; $995 to $2,495 per year.
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
550,393 550,437

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 547,532 102.2% 3.5%
1999 528,890 99% 76.56%
1998 299,555 91% 33%
1997 224,401 45% -29.9%
1996 320,000 67% 10.8%
1995 288,860 60% -18.3%
1994 353,514 74% -21.9%
1993 452,522 94% -5.6%


1993-1996 Attendance figures are for the Astrodome, Houston, Texas.
1997 Attendance figures are for the Liberty Bowl, Memphis, Tennessee.
1998 Attendance figures are for Vanderbilt Stadium, Nashville, Tennessee.

[KingPriest2]

Date Built 1995
Ownership
(Management) St. Louis Regional Sports Authority
(St. Louis Convention/Visitors Bureau)
Surface Artificial
Cost of Construction $280 million
Stadium Financing Debt issued by City, State and County; annual debt service paid by City ($6 million from tax revenue); State ($12 million from tax revenue); County ($6 million from hotel/motel tax)
Naming Rights Edward Jones will pay the Rams an average of $2.65 million per year over the course of the 12-year agreement.
Original Naming Rights TWA originally agreed to pay $1.3 million annually for 20-year naming rights beginning in 1995 with payments increasing 3.5% each year.
Stadium Architect HOK
Former Names(s) The Dome at America's Center
(2002)
Trans World Dome
(1995-2001)
Other Facts

Tenant St. Louis Rams
(NFL) 1995-Present
Population Base 2,500,000
On Site Parking 900
Nearest Airport 18 Miles


Seating

Football 65,321
Prices
(Mean) $45, $40, $35, $30, $25
($33.57) - 1998
Luxury Suites 124 Suites
Club Seats 6,500
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
528,829 528,498

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 528,402 100.1% 1.4%
1999 520,926 100% 18.2%
1998 440,642 84% -15%
1997 518,468 99% 6.9%
1996 484,896 93% -2.3%
1995 496,486 99% 46.7%
1994 338,497 60% -6.8%
1993 363,211 64% -5%

1995 - Attendance at Busch Stadium, St. Louis.
1993-94 - Attendance at Anaheim Stadium, Anaheim.

[KingPriest2]

Here are the Redskins


The Facility

Date Built 1997
Ownership
(Management) Daniel Snyder
(Washington Redskins)
Surface Grass
Cost of Construction $250.5 million
Stadium Financing Private ($180 million) and state ($70.5 million)
Naming Rights Federal Express Corp. Financial terms of the agreement were not disclosed in 1999
Stadium Architect HOK
Other Facts

Tenant Washington Redskins
(NFL) 1997-Present
Population Base 3,500,000
On Site Parking 22,000
Nearest Airport 10 Miles
Retired Numbers #33 Sammy Baugh


Seating

Football 80,116
Prices
(Mean) $60, $55, $50, $40
($52.92) - 1998
Luxury Suites 280 Suites
Club Seats 15,044
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
624,374 643,950

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 647,424 101.0% 4.5%
1999 619,749 97% 14.3%
1998 542,099 85% -10%
1997 605,592 94% 40.9%
1996 427,750 95% 3.5%
1995 413,150 91% 0.7%
1994 410,145 91% 2.1%
1993 401,769 89% -11%


1993-1996 Attendance figures are for RFK Memorial Stadium.

[KingPriest2]

The Facility

Date Built 2002
Ownership
(Management) Detroit/Wayne County Stadium Authority
(Detroit Lions)
Surface Artificial
Cost of Construction $300 million
Stadium Financing The Detroit Lions, Inc., City of Detroit/Detroit Downtown Development Authority, Wayne County, Ford Motor Company, Corporate Founding Investors
Naming Rights Ford Company $40 million over 20 years.
Architects SHG, Inc., Rossetti Associates Architects, Hamilton Anderson Associates, Inc.
Other Facts

Tenant Detroit Lions
(NFL) 2002-Future
Population Base 5,000,000

Seating

Football 65,000
Prices
(Mean)
Luxury Suites 120 Suites
Club Seats
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
601,815 489,742

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 606,716 94.4% 4.7%
1999 579,314 90% 1.38%
1998 571,416 81% 3%
1997 554,898 86% 7.8%
1996 514,950 80% -8.9%
1995 565,233 88% 3.1%
1994 547,977 85% 0.6%
1993 544,969 85% 4.1%
1993-2001 Attendance figures are for the Pontiac Silverdome.

[KingPriest2]

Here is Green Bay

They spent $295 million

The Facility

Date Built 1957
Date Renovated 2000-2003
Ownership
(Management) City of Green Bay
(City of Green Bay)
Surface Grass
Cost of Renovation $295,000,000
Stadium Financing Publicly financed

Seating

Football 71,000
Prices
(Mean) $39, $36, $32
($34.85) - 1998
Luxury Suites 167 Suites
Club Seats 6,260
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
478,433 508,788 562,819

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 478,747 98.3% 0.0%
1999 478,900 98% -0.08%
1998 479,292 99% 0%
1997 481,494 99% -0.3%
1996 482,988 99% 0.4%
1995 481,036 99% 5%
1994 458,074 94% 1.1%
1993 452,966 93% 1.5%
1993-02 - Attendance at Old Lambeau Field.

[ChiTown]

once again i ask...


why pay 800 million to renovate old stadiums when with a good setup we can prolly build 2 NEW stadiums for 600-900 million of taxpayer money?

Bistate just wasn't right ... for 1.4 billion we should of been getting 2 brand new stadiums AND money for the ARTs.


just my opinion though i guess

I dunno. Frankly, I'd rather see Royals Stadium downtown (smaller venue (30K seat capacity) with better seating. I'm good with where Arrowhead is. I don't think we have to build a new stadium for the Chiefs. It just needs a major overhaul on the existing infrastructure. JMHO

[Mr. Laz]

I thought Bi-State was giving $180 mil to Hunt and $180 mil to Glass?

:shrug: i don't know



then why am i reading totals of 1.4 billion for cost of the Bistate?

[Bob Dole]

So 3 pages later, Bob Dole is left to assume nobody has any numbers regarding ROI.

[KingPriest2]

OK Laz all those stadiums are older pre 2001

Are you ready for the new ones?

[Mr. Laz]

So 3 pages later, Bob Dole is left to assume nobody has any numbers regarding ROI.

ROI??? :hmmm:

[KingPriest2]

Date Built 2002
Ownership
(Management) King County
(Department of Stadium Administration)
Surface Field Turf
Former Name(s) Seahawks Stadium 2002-2004
Cost of Construction $300 million
Stadium Financing Extension of county issued bonds serviced by car rental and hotel tax to raise $75 million; 6 additional lottery games to raise $91 million; Paul Allen to provide $100 million.
Naming Rights Telecommunications corporation Qwest $75 million over 15 years.
Architect Ellerbe Becket and
First and Goal, I

[KingPriest2]

The Facility

Date Built 2003
First Game September 8, 2003
(Loss to Tampa Bay 17-0)
Ownership
(Management) City of Philadelphia
(Philadelphia Eagles)
Surface Grass
Cost of Construction $512 million
Stadium Financing State, City, NFL and Team
Naming Rights Lincoln Financial 20 years, $139.6 million
Stadium Architect NBBJ Sports and Entertainment
Agoos Lovera Architects
Other Facts

Tenants Philadelphia Eagles
(NFL) 2003-Present;
Temple University
(NCAA) 2003-Present
Population Base 6,000,000
On Site Parking 22,000
Nearest Airport 8 Miles

Seating

Football 68,532
Luxury Suites 172
Club Seats 10,828
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
527,193 523,535

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 523,531 100.1% 0.7%
1999 519,835 99% -1.54%
1998 527,990 101% -1%
1997 535,783 102% 4.2%
1996 514,003 98% 0.8%
1995 509,695 97% 4.3%
1994 488,744 93% 0%
1993 488,774 93% -6.3%


And the Phillies

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Tenant: Philadelphia Phillies (NL)
Opening: April 9, 2004
Construction began: November 2001
Style: Open air
Surface: Kentucky Bluegrass
Capacity: 43,000 (baseball only)

Architects: Ewing Cole Cherry Brott (Philadelphia) and HOK Sport (Kansas City)
Construction: Driscoll/Hunt (a joint venture between L. F. Driscoll Co. of Bala Cynwyd, PA and Hunt Construction Group, Inc. of Indianapolis) in association with Synterra/Todd (a joint venture between Synterra of Philadelphia and Don Todd Associates, Inc. of San Francisco)
Owner: City of Philadelphia
Cost: $346 million
Public financing: $174 million
Private financing: $172 million



1993-2002 Attendance figures are for Veterans Stadium.

[Mr. Laz]

OK Laz all those stadiums are older pre 2001

Are you ready for the new ones?

sure ... but maybe u can just copy the cost of construction/taxpayer cost and put several all in 1 (smaller :p ) post


o:-)

[Mark M]

once again i ask...


why pay 800 million to renovate old stadiums when with a good setup we can prolly build 2 NEW stadiums for 600-900 million of taxpayer money?

First of all, bi-state would NOT have given $800 million to renovate the stadiums. It was $180 mil per stadium, for a total of $360 million.

Secondly, with the rennovations they had planned, KC would essentially have two new stadiums in an area where there was already land and was already set up to handle the traffic.

IMHO, I still think the #1 option to re-do the current stadiums for the price of one new one. But that's just me.

MM
~~:shrug:

[Mark M]

So 3 pages later, Bob Dole is left to assume nobody has any numbers regarding ROI.
Fuggin IT people ...

MM
~~:p

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I understand that this issue may have had flaws and I can appreciate people not voting for it because of the unknowns. It seems to me though that if either team leaves town now then the people of KC have no one to blame but themselves.

You think LA isn't ready and willing to do what it takes to get an NFL team in town? Think again. You think Lamar Hunt is gonna be around forever and not allow the team to be moved? Yeah, right. It's all about the bucks and KC just told the teams they don't have the bucks for their teams. David Glass has never seemed to have any love for KC in the first place to me. Now he has more reason to pack up and go. Lamar Hunt is very old and frail. He's not gonna be around to watch over the Chiefs forever, then what?

I know some people don't care about the Royals...but they were champions once. They are a great part of the city's history. I can't imagine a KC without them.

For people who want a downtown baseball stadium I just say it seems you have no appreciation for the history, heritage as well as the true beauty of Kauffman Stadium. I'm probably being a homer, but I think it's the best stadium in sports. To just bulldoze it for a new park downtown seems ridiculous and stupid to me. Renovating it and keeping it vital seems like a no-brainer.

Sure, we love Arrowhead but as compared to the other newer stadiums in the NFL it is very lacking in ammenities... and don't think it's just for the fan's comfort that those ammenities are important. Free agents tend to like nice places too.

Again I do understand the problems some had with voting yes for bistate. I also know that growing up I always wanted to move to KC and live the rest of my life there. If either team moves, I'll be glad I didn't.

[Mr. Laz]

First of all, bi-state would NOT have given $800 million to renovate the stadiums. It was $180 mil per stadium, for a total of $360 million.

Secondly, with the rennovations they had planned, KC would essentially have two new stadiums in an area where there was already land and was already set up to handle the traffic.

IMHO, I still think the #1 option to re-do the current stadiums for the price of one new one. But that's just me.

MM
~~:shrug:

mmmmkk

the total cost was 1.4 billion ... correct?

[KingPriest2]

The Facility

Date Built 2006
Ownership
(Management) Arizona Sports & Tourism Authority
(Global Spectrum)
Surface Grass
Cost of Construction $370.6 million
Stadium Financing Public/Private
The Arizona Sports & Tourism Authority is contributing $266.6 million and the Arizona Cardinals are contributing $104 million.

[Mark M]

mmmmkk

the total cost was 1.4 billion ... correct?

I believe so, but the $800 million number for the stadiums is wrong.

From every single published report I've seen, the number was $180 mill per stadium. How the $800 mill got in there I have no idea.

But you've hit on the exact problem with the proposal -- no one was sure exactly how much was going for what. It was poorly designed and written.

MM
~~:shrug:

[KingPriest2]

I just think it's a shame to throw away two good stadiums. I'd love to see a nice overhaul on them.

Mostly sentimental reasons... but, also a touch of Mom's cheapness, I guess.


Arrowhead is the best place The Chiefs need to stay there. Wouldn't it be awesome if they did renovate it like Lambeau.

[KingPriest2]

If the cost of the Arizona stadium is only 370 million, then I gotta think the number laz posted for the Dallas stadium earlier is the total cost... and the taxpayer burden is half that.

The Arizona stadium is gonna have all kinds of silly shit... retractable roof, retractable field.... what the hell could Dallas have in mind that would cost almost twice as much.


That stadium is costing $650 million the cost is split in half.

[KCTitus]

Good freakin God. What the hell are they spending all that money on?

Union labor?

[KingPriest2]

The Facility

Date Built 1924
Date Renovated 2002
Ownership
(Management) Chicago Park District
City of Chicago
(SMG-Soldier Field Joint Venture)
Surface Grass
Original Cost of Construction $10 million
Renovation Cost of Construction $365 million
Stadium Financing Publically Financed

Football 63,000
Prices
(Mean) Unknown
Luxury Suites 133 Suites
Club Seats 8,600
Attendance History

2001 2002 2003 2004
535,552 464,465 492,821

Season Total Capacity Change
2000 446,057 83.3% -1.5%
1999 526,989 98% 19.5%
1998 440,989 82% 4.5%
1997 421,900 79% -21.2%
1996 535,552 100% 10.5%
1995 484,823 91% 3.6%
1994 468,105 87% 0.5%
1993 465,832 87% -2.6%
1993-2001 - Attendance at old Soldier Field.
2002 - Attendance at Memorial Stadium.

[Mr. Laz]

Good freakin God. What the hell are they spending all that money on?

well... i think that everything in Dallas is alot more expensive


the land itself would prolly count for a % of that

[KingPriest2]

I don't like the idea of a downtown stadium for the Royals but I think they can do alot more with one then fixing it up.

Arrowhead you can fix up.

Give the K to Hunt and do whatever he wants. Sell the Complex to him for $200-300m and then build a new K with that money. Then there is no new tax burden. Glass and the Royals can put in $50-100m if they like. Glass would pay that money back as a loan to buy it. That is the only hitch to this plan.

Hunt would be in a great postition owning his own stadium and parking. Glass would have a new stadium in which he would own someday downtown.

What do you think?

[Mr. Laz]

I don't like the idea of a downtown stadium for the Royals but I think they can do alot more with one then fixing it up.

Arrowhead you can fix up.

Give the K to Hunt and do whatever he wants. Sell the Complex to him for $200-300m and then build a new K with that money. Then there is no new tax burden. Glass and the Royals can put in $50-100m if they like. Glass would pay that money back as a loan to buy it. That is the only hitch to this plan.

Hunt would be in a great postition owning his own stadium and parking. Glass would have a new stadium in which he would own someday downtown.

What do you think?

sounds like a much more inventive,progressive method to me


now i dont know if that would work... but the real point is that Bistate sucked.

it can written so we get MUCH,MUCH more for our money

[KCTitus]

If they're building on the same site, would that not increase the cost to tear down the old one? Dunno...500M does seem high based upon the stadium figures posted by KingPriest2.

[KingPriest2]

If they're building on the same site, would that not increase the cost to tear down the old one? Dunno...500M does seem high based upon the stadium figures posted by KingPriest2.


If you are talking about Dallas then here is a article about it.

Voters approve plan to build new Dallas Cowboys stadium

BOBBY ROSS JR.

Associated Press


ARLINGTON, Texas - Hang up your cleats and make yourselves comfortable, Dallas Cowboys. This will soon be your new home.

The NFL's most storied franchise scored a major victory at the polls Tuesday - to the tune of $325 million - as voters in this city halfway between Dallas and Fort Worth approved paying for half of a 75,000-seat, retractable-roof stadium.

"This is a historic moment for America's Team and for the economy of the region," said Rob Allyn, head of the public relations firm that handled the pro-stadium campaign for the Cowboys.

The decision means the Cowboys will move to Arlington when the team's lease at Texas Stadium in Irving, where Dallas has played since 1971, expires in 2008.

Chants of "Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!" greeted Cowboys owner Jerry Jones at a victory rally by the Vote Yes! A Win for Arlington Committee, the pro-stadium group into which the team pumped more than $5 million.

"Well, I'm going to be brief. You know that's hard for me to do, but if I can stay in the closet as long as I have stayed in it the last few weeks, I can do it," joked Jones, the billionaire owner who took a low-profile role in the campaign as the anti-stadium No Jones Tax Coalition accused him of seeking "corporate welfare."

With all of Arlington's ballots counted Tuesday night, 55 percent of voters supported the city's proposition to increase sales, hotel and motel, and car-rental taxes to lure the Cowboys.

"The Cowboys won this game," said Warren Norred, a leader of the No Jones Tax Coalition. "It's a win for people who want to take money out of every man's pocket and give it to one man. Life goes on."

The $650 million stadium will be built next to the Texas Rangers' Ameriquest Field and near the Six Flags Over Texas amusement park, creating what city leaders envision as a sports and entertainment mecca. Arlington is about 15 miles west of Dallas, but the team will still be called the Dallas Cowboys.




I have been to the Rangers ballpark and it is nice. The area is nice over there and with the Cowboys there Wow. That would be something if the Complex can do that. I hate to say it but if the racetrack had room it could work there.

[KingPriest2]

Kind of long but talks about the new Dallas stadium

April 16, 2004
Sports Business News
The Cowboys and one very costly stadium plan The Dallas Cowboys' plan for a stadium at Fair Park would create one of the largest entertainment venues in the country, sources close to the project say. That and this report from The Dallas Morning News' Katie Fairbank

The $650 million project would include an all-weather stadium, a practice facility, corporate offices, a retail shop, banquet facilities and a hall-of-fame museum, all built on land that's available within the 277 acres of Fair Park, according to plans obtained by The Dallas Morning News.

With that kind of deal in mind, the team, city, county and others are working feverishly to secure a deal.

The Cowboys have been floating a stadium proposal over the last four years while they considered several sites in North Texas, including their current home in Irving. To fit into Fair Park, the team would use a smaller concept that has been scaled back to fit within the historic structure of the area.

What hasn't changed is the focal point of the project - the stadium. It would still have the retractable roof long coveted by Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, sports fans and civic leaders hoping to attract a Super Bowl. The facility would seat about 75,000 and have about 300 luxury suites.

At least one end of the stadium would be open, so it could handle larger crowds with standing-room-only tickets, along the same lines of infield seating sold at car races.

So what would happen to Fair Park?

To build the Cowboys' facilities, most of the aging Cotton Bowl would be scrapped. A large chunk of the original Cotton Bowl would remain as a memorial of sorts, attached to a park-style green and leading into the new stadium.

The footprint for the project, which would be north of the midway, would affect some areas of the park, including the sheep and cattle barns, the coliseum and Smirnoff Centre. None of those sites is considered historical, but the Cowboys would still need to find a way to incorporate the agriculture barns back into the park. They're currently considering adding them to the bottom level of parking structures that would be built for premium ticket holders. Under that scenario, cows would be on the ground floor with about 5,000 Cowboy fans' cars up above.

"We're all for it with the understanding they'd put back everything they take down at their expense," said State Fair president Errol W. McKoy.

The plan doesn't involve touching the swine barns, which are considered historical.

The Cowboys have been meeting with groups involved in overseeing various aspects of Fair Park, including the mayor, Landmark Commission, city council members, county commissioners and State Fair representatives. While all of the talks have been going well, the team still has to get the county to agree to public financing. The Cowboys are expecting the public to put about $400 million to $450 million into the project. That and this report from The Dallas Morning News' Katie Fairbank

If the county and Cowboys reach an agreement, the issue would be put on the ballot this November.

According to the plan for Fair Park, the Cowboys would no longer work on retail, hotel or restaurant development outside the stadium project. Instead, the team would build the stadium project and let the other developments take care of themselves.

The team might have made more money from surrounding development but will find it easier to get public and political support without it.

Fair Park doesn't need as much development work as other sites the Cowboys have looked at. It has eight museums, performance sites, conference facilities and 7 million visitors a year.

According to the Fair Park Master Plan completed in October, there are plans for a roller coaster, sky needle, aerial tramway, hotel and additional restaurants. The State Fair owns an additional 68 acres outside the park that could be used for further development.

Fair Park offers good highway access, and Dallas Area Rapid Transit plans to put in light-rail stations right outside the park. Fair Park already plans to add shuttle connections to them.

So if the deal goes through, the Cowboys would be able to concentrate just on building state-of-the-art football facilities.

Observers say that's a coup in a day and age when many sports teams spend as much effort developing land as they do developing winners. Some team owners are developers at heart; others take on the job because they want new stadiums to generate extra revenue they don't have to share with their leagues. Teams can keep money from corporate sponsorships or leases on luxury suites, for example.

"There's a cachet of being affiliated with a new building that is very strong," said David Carter, a principal in Los Angeles' Sports Business Group. "It would refocus everyone's attention on the Cowboys."

And since the amount of money a team can generate on its own outside the league makes a difference to the owner's bottom line, sports stadiums have been popping up across the country. In the last 15 years, 26 of the 32 National Football League teams have either built stadiums or renovated facilities.

"If an owner can find a local or regional government to have the stomach to finance a building, they're going to be giddy about it," Mr. Carter said.

Usually teams sell taxpayers on the sites by promising surrounding development and the jobs that creates. But in the end it's not an easy thing to accomplish, as shown by the empty space around The Ballpark at Arlington and American Airlines Center in Dallas.

If the Cowboys go to Fair Park, they can avoid those issues and instead be considered white knights for helping to revitalize the historic, art-deco site.

"I would love to see the Cowboys come back to Fair Park and help us make it the jewel in our city that it once was," Mayor Laura Miller said. "It would be terrific for Fair Park, for South Dallas and downtown Dallas. I think it would bring a lot of people downtown and help us revitalize the area between downtown and Fair Park." That and this report from The Dallas Morning News' Katie Fairbank

One of the last NFL teams to build a new stadium, the Dallas Cowboys have a unique vision - a domed, air-conditioned, 75,000-seat facility with a retractable roof and open end zones linked to fan decks that could increase seating capacity to 100,000 with reduced-cost tickets.

A technologically enhanced stadium designed to flexibly adapt to a variety of sports and entertainment events - from Super Bowls to the Pan Am games, from the Cotton Bowl to major concerts.

A centerpoint for Dallas Cowboys Park, the stadium's open end zones will seamlessly link to Legends Square . . . an environment of restaurants, shops, entertainment venues and gathering places - extending fan experience to a daylong event and providing a source of year-round visitation.

Next to the stadium will be the heart of the park - Legends Square. Serving as the centerpoint of Cowboys Park and the gateway to the stadium, Legends Square is at once a town center for the metroplex and a must-see destination for tourists and visitors.

Designed with a town center environment, Legends Square will feature a diversity of engaging eateries and restaurants, and sports experiences anchored by Cowboys branded attractions.

Legends Square is a tribute not only to Texas sports heroes like Lance Armstrong and Roger Staubach, but also community heroes from volunteer firemen to outstanding teachers.

Within walking distance of residential living in Dallas Cowboys Park, Legends Square will provide a centerpoint of a legacy that extends beyond the Dallas Cowboys - it celebrates the achievement of an entire community.

Economic Growth & Jobs: A year-round destination attraction to draw thousands of new jobs, millions of visitors, and billions in economic impact.

Host To Super Bowls & Global Events: Capable of hosting major sporting events like the Super Bowl, Cotton Bowl, NCAA Final Four, concerts and mega-conventions.

Revenue For Roads, Schools & Police: New sales tax revenue generated to improve public safety, roads and schools, and provide new parks for families.

Sports Fields For Local Youth: Indoor and outdoor family entertainment including sports fields for soccer, baseball, softball and other sports.

Convention & Tourism Dollars: A magnetic appeal for much-needed convention and tourism business in Dallas-Fort Worth.

On the edge of Legends Square will be the Cowboys Experience, a spectacular, multi-faceted venue built by the Dallas Cowboys for community activities, fan experiences and tourism. It's a one-of-a-kind attraction celebrating the legacy of the Dallas Cowboys, offering fans an unparalleled behind-the-scenes experience.

The Cowboys Experience will offer a variety of dining venues looking out over an interactive entertainment floor - hosting community, corporate and group competitions. Cowboys Experience also will host weddings, celebrations, corporate events and celebrity appearances.

Anchoring the Field House will be a Cowboys-themed, interactive hall of fame... a legacy experience that will offer fans, families and tourists a better appreciation of the rich history of the Dallas Cowboys from Don Meredith and Tom Landry, to Bill Parcells and Roy Williams.

Depending on the site, acres of green space linked to the Cowboys Experience, Cowboys Fields will serve as an outdoor sports field complex for youth and adult league competition for football, lacrosse, soccer, baseball, field hockey, and many other field sports.

Sports clinics, camps and competitions throughout the year will further enhance the Fields as an invaluable and lasting community resource for families looking for safe recreational opportunities.

The Dallas Cowboys also will lend their name to a destination hotel to support the region's tourist and convention trade. A Dallas Cowboys branded hotel will attract new convention business with state-of-the-art corporate meeting facilities, promote economic growth, and make the region more competitive for lucrative corporate gatherings and civic events

[KingPriest2]

Arlington approves Dallas Cowboys stadium



Arlington, TX, Nov. 3 (UPI) -- Arlington voters have approved a tax increase to help Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones build a $650 million stadium in the North Texas city.


Voters approved a measure that would raise the city sales tax by a half-cent, hotel occupancy tax by 2 percent, and car rental tax by 5 percent, The Dallas Morning News reported. The financing package was approved 55 percent to 45 percent.

The Cowboys spent $4.6 million in a campaign to win the approval of Arlington voters after a possible deal with Dallas fell through earlier this year. The Cowboys would move from Texas Stadium in Irving to the new facility in 2009.

Bruce Deramus, chairman of Concerned Taxpayers of Arlington, said opponents were disappointed but they kept the race close despite the expensive Cowboys campaign. The opposition raised $118,000 for their campaign.

The 75,000-seat, retractable-roof stadium would be built near Americaquest Field, the home of the Texas Rangers baseball club, in Arlington, which is midway between Dallas and Fort Worth. Supporters say the stadium will spur even more economic development in the city.

[Mr. Laz]

The $650 million project would include an all-weather stadium, a practice facility, corporate offices, a retail shop, banquet facilities and a hall-of-fame museum, all built on land that's available within the 277 acres of Fair Park, according to plans obtained by The Dallas Morning News.


now this is something i would like


move the royals out and then build something like this at the sport complex.

there's tons of land out there for it



a plan that is actually aggressive and pro-active.... big bang for your buck.

[KingPriest2]

sounds like a much more inventive,progressive method to me


now i dont know if that would work... but the real point is that Bistate sucked.

it can written so we get MUCH,MUCH more for our money

If they have trouble getting the public to support it then this is a way to do it. NO new taxes at all

Hunt buys the complex. Then the county in turn loans it to Glass He puts in his money and we could have a $400 m entertainment district downtown along with the arena.

Another idea do what they are doing with the Cowboys and Rangers and fix up the complex around it

Or

Build a new complex at the race track (which I don't want)

What do you think?

[Mr. Laz]

If they have trouble getting the public to support it then this is a way to do it. NO new taxes at all

Hunt buys the complex. Then the county in turn loans it to Glass He puts in his money and we could have a $400 m entertainment district downtown along with the arena.

Another idea do what they are doing with the Cowboys and Rangers and fix up the complex around it

Or

Build a new complex at the race track (which I don't want)

What do you think?

yea...

i just want a complete, innovative plan. Not just a "this is the best we can squeeze together right now" plan.


if your going to do it, do it right :thumb: ... in the long run the extra money it takes to really make an impact will be worth it. Alot moreso than a bandaid and a prayer just to get by.

[htismaqe]

yea...

i just want a complete, innovative plan. Not just a "this is the best we can squeeze together right now" plan.


if your going to do it, do it right :thumb: ... in the long run the extra money it takes to really make an impact will be worth it. Alot moreso than a bandaid and a prayer just to get by.

:thumb:

[Mr. Laz]

Or

Build a new complex at the race track (which I don't want)

What do you think?
btw - if we aren't going to do it big out at the sports complex we might as well doing to big at the race track.

missouri has 2 football teams and 2 baseball teams.

both the Royals and Chiefs are the stepchild teams of the state


maybe they will get a better, more aggressive plan if they move to Kansas and are there ONLY sports teams in the state.



yes, i know missourians hate kansas ... but if the stadium plan is better than they can just learn to drive further for the games.

[Mr. Laz]

:thumb:

where ya been parker?

[jynni]

Is the race track area KCK? Is so than they could still be the KC Chiefs and Royals and actually be in Kansas like the rest of the country thinks.

But really, I want them left right where they are and rennovated.

[Mr. Laz]

I don't hate Kansas.

I hate Kansans. :p


http://www.student.hig.se/~gavlecon/Smec2001%20mooning.jpg

[htismaqe]

where ya been parker?

It's this weird thing people call work...it's a new and foreign concept for me, so I've been struggling with it.

[ChiTown]

http://home.earthlink.net/~zola/moon.jpg

Dude, take down the pic. You can totally see some dudes gunny sac.

[Mark M]

Is the race track area KCK? Is so than they could still be the KC Chiefs and Royals and actually be in Kansas like the rest of the country thinks.

But really, I want them left right where they are and rennovated.

The other issue is that the KS Speedway isn't as centrally located as the current location of the stadiums. Hell, it's closer to Leavenworth than it is to where I live.

Plus, traffic flow isn't nearly as good out there. Granted, traffic at the complex sucks, but it's sssoooooo much better than most places.

Here's my plan:

Lamar builds a 20,000 or so seat soccer-only stadium out by the Speedway. It could also be used to host concerts too big for Sandstone/Verizon and the new arena. It is partly paid for by Lamar, and partly by Wyandotte County and/or the state of KS. They sell Arrowhead to Lamar. He keeps it where it is and renovates, part with public $$ and part with his own. They add restaurants and a Chiefs HOF. They bulldoze the K for parking and build a new downtown baseball stadium as PART of a more well-rounded downtown revitalization project. This includes: shopping (grocery stores, etc.), housing, and a bond issue to improve the schools. This is because a truly vital downtown means people live there, and the only way they will is to have shopping, plenty of parking and a school district that's not a complete embarassment. The new stadium looks similar to the K, complete with the same scoreboard and fountains. Bars, restaurants, etc. are all part of the area.Now, this will probably cost a crazy amount of money from the people in the area -- probably $12-15 million for the soccer stadium, around $150 mill for Arrowhead, and around $450+ mill for downtown (this includes a school bond, infrastructure improvements, tax incentives for businesses to build there, repeal of the KC earnings tax, and the stadium itself).

Total cost: about $650 million.
We'd get:
A soccer only stadium by the Speedway; Arrowhead would be just like new, but still have the same feel and no PSLs; Better KC schools; A revitalized downtown where people want to live; A new baseball stadium that generates more revenue for the team.What do you guys and gals think?

Shoud I run for mayor in the next election ... ?

MM
~~:D

[Mr. Laz]

Dude, take down the pic. You can totally see some dudes gunny sac.

sorry ... i didnt look that close at the guys @ss

NTTIAWWT ;)

[Mr. Laz]

The other issue is that the KS Speedway isn't as centrally located as the current location of the stadiums. Hell, it's closer to Leavenworth than it is to where I live.
you mean it isn't centrally located "TO YOU"


ROFL ROFL


the racetrack is basically the Kansas equivalent of the sports complex in Missouri.

a little out of the way... but that allows for better access and more room.

[Brock]

Shoud I run for mayor in the next election ... ?

MM
~~:D

No. Bulldozing the K is a very silly idea.

[Mark M]

you mean it isn't centrally located "TO YOU"


Me and about 70% of the metro population ...

MM
~~:p

[Mark M]

No. Bulldozing the K is a very silly idea.

Well, it was either that or taking it apart, moving it, and putting it back together again ...

MM
~~:D

[tk13]

Well, it was either that or taking it apart, moving it, and putting it back together again ...

MM
~~:D
Put it up on blocks and drive it downtown and drop it right on top of Bartle Hall.

I still say booooo to all you idjits who wanna get rid of the K. I have almost 0 faith that they will build a more beautiful ballpark unless they just build it exactly the same with newer looking seating areas and luxury boxes and such, and doing that would be stupid since you could just add on to the K already and save yourself the money....

[Mark M]

Put it up on blocks and drive it downtown and drop it right on top of Bartle Hall.

ROFL

I still say booooo to all you idjits who wanna get rid of the K. I have almost 0 faith that they will build a more beautiful ballpark unless they just build it exactly the same with newer looking seating areas and luxury boxes and such, and doing that would be stupid since you could just add on to the K already and save yourself the money....
Well, that would be my first plan. I have a ton of great memories from seeing games at the K. I was just trying to think outside the proverbial box is all. :D

In reality, I think that Glass will poo-poo any idea of renovating the K because he wants to move the team.

I have no proof of that, just a sick feeling I get. I don't trust the guy.

MM
~~:sulk:

[cookster50]

I believe so, but the $800 million number for the stadiums is wrong.

From every single published report I've seen, the number was $180 mill per stadium. How the $800 mill got in there I have no idea.





Each stadium would get $180. The difference of the 180+180 and 800 mill was the financing cost. Pretty hefty charges if you ask me.

[Mark M]

The difference of the 180+180 and 800 mill was the financing cost. Pretty hefty charges if you ask me.

$640 mill in finance charges?

:eek:

They must've been using the same company I got my credit cards from ...

MM
~~;)

[cookster50]

And I think the correct number was $600, not $800.

The total was 1.2 bill.

[KingPriest2]

The other issue is that the KS Speedway isn't as centrally located as the current location of the stadiums. Hell, it's closer to Leavenworth than it is to where I live.

Plus, traffic flow isn't nearly as good out there. Granted, traffic at the complex sucks, but it's sssoooooo much better than most places.

Here's my plan:

Lamar builds a 20,000 or so seat soccer-only stadium out by the Speedway. It could also be used to host concerts too big for Sandstone/Verizon and the new arena. It is partly paid for by Lamar, and partly by Wyandotte County and/or the state of KS. They sell Arrowhead to Lamar. He keeps it where it is and renovates, part with public $$ and part with his own. They add restaurants and a Chiefs HOF. They bulldoze the K for parking and build a new downtown baseball stadium as PART of a more well-rounded downtown revitalization project. This includes: shopping (grocery stores, etc.), housing, and a bond issue to improve the schools. This is because a truly vital downtown means people live there, and the only way they will is to have shopping, plenty of parking and a school district that's not a complete embarassment. The new stadium looks similar to the K, complete with the same scoreboard and fountains. Bars, restaurants, etc. are all part of the area.Now, this will probably cost a crazy amount of money from the people in the area -- probably $12-15 million for the soccer stadium, around $150 mill for Arrowhead, and around $450+ mill for downtown (this includes a school bond, infrastructure improvements, tax incentives for businesses to build there, repeal of the KC earnings tax, and the stadium itself).

Total cost: about $650 million.
We'd get:
A soccer only stadium by the Speedway; Arrowhead would be just like new, but still have the same feel and no PSLs; Better KC schools; A revitalized downtown where people want to live; A new baseball stadium that generates more revenue for the team.What do you guys and gals think?

Shoud I run for mayor in the next election ... ?

MM
~~:D

Ah SCREW YOU! :) I said it first. refer to post 104

No You just expanded on my idea further.

I was saying sell the complex to Lamar (more then likely it will be around $200-300 mil) and Lamar can do anything he wants with it. I say build the soccer stadium there.

Have the county give that money to Glass as a loan (the hitch) so he can pay back. Glass can put in $50 to 100 mil towards the downtown stadium. This would somehow be part of the entertainment district with the Sprint Center.

Guess what?

NO COST to the taxpayers.

Great plan huh?

[Mark M]

Ah SCREW YOU! :) I said it first. refer to post 104

No You just expanded on my idea further.

I was saying sell the complex to Lamar (more then likely it will be around $200-300 mil) and Lamar can do anything he wants with it. I say build the soccer stadium there.

Have the county give that money to Glass as a loan (the hitch) so he can pay back. Glass can put in $50 to 100 mil towards the downtown stadium. This would somehow be part of the entertainment district with the Sprint Center.

Guess what?

NO COST to the taxpayers.

Great plan huh?

A decent plan but, just like mine, one that will never happen. :p

Why would Lamar pay $300 mill or so just for a stadium he needs to put another $150 mill into to upgrade? I highly doubt his kids would go for it either.

Besides, why make Lamar shell out all of that money then give Glass special treatment? Doesn't make sense to me.

Just like 99% of the other owners out there, Lamar and Glass will want the taxpayers to pay part of the bill.

MM
~~:shake:

[cmh6476]

Just like 99% of the other owners out there, Lamar and Glass will want the taxpayers to pay part of the bill.

MM
~~:shake:
the plan that will be in the state legislature will not include that big of a burden to the taxpayers ;)

[KingPriest2]

A decent plan but, just like mine, one that will never happen. :p

Why would Lamar pay $300 mill or so just for a stadium he needs to put another $150 mill into to upgrade? I highly doubt his kids would go for it either.

Besides, why make Lamar shell out all of that money then give Glass special treatment? Doesn't make sense to me.

Just like 99% of the other owners out there, Lamar and Glass will want the taxpayers to pay part of the bill.

MM
~~:shake:

You might be right about never happening. YOu also have a great question about why Lamar would do it.

But actually Glass is not getting special treatmen He still has to shell out what Hunt paid in. They are both putting in their share of money.

They both get total control (more Hunt then Glass) over their stadiums. Hunt would have his soccer stadium. I think right there is the selling point. They get total revenue from the sites. No where else does it go.

I think if they owned the sites they would do it on their own. But we don't know because Jackson County owns it.

[KingPriest2]

the plan that will be in the state legislature will not include that big of a burden to the taxpayers ;)


Details?

[cmh6476]

Details?
Basically, when a team comes into the state of Missouri to play in a sporting event, they must pay a tax to the state before they receive a paycheck for that performance. This applies to any teams that come in and play the Chiefs and Royals, and prolly the StL teams, and probably even down to the wizards. i think it even works for concerts and stuff like that.

Currently, that money is funneled into an arts fund. Some currrent state legislators would like to take that money coming in and put that for a specific period of time into improvements at arrowhead and the K. It's quite a bit of money, and would pick up most of the bill.

We'll see where it goes. But this is the backup plan to the bi-state tax...

[KingPriest2]

Basically, when a team comes into the state of Missouri to play in a sporting event, they must pay a tax to the state before they receive a paycheck for that performance. This applies to any teams that come in and play the Chiefs and Royals, and prolly the StL teams, and probably even down to the wizards. i think it even works for concerts and stuff like that.

Currently, that money is funneled into an arts fund. Some currrent state legislators would like to take that money coming in and put that for a specific period of time into improvements at arrowhead and the K. It's quite a bit of money, and would pick up most of the bill.

We'll see where it goes. But this is the backup plan to the bi-state tax...

I knew about the tax. I thought there were other details. This could work


This still might work on my plan.

[philfree]

After eading this I have to ask, Is there no chance of another renovation proposal to be voted on in the next year? Why can't the powers that be just come up with a better plan that the voters will agree to?

PhilFree :arrow:

[bobbything]

After eading this I have to ask, Is there no chance of another renovation proposal to be voted on in the next year? Why can't the powers that be just come up with a better plan that the voters will agree to?
This is exactly what will happen. There's no way that this was our only shot at a multi-million dollar renovation.

I read the proposal. I voted against it because it was so poorly written that I wasn't sure why $190 mil+ was going into Kauffman, and $190 mil+ was going into Arrowhead. Lump that with $600 mil+ going into an "Arts" program and you've got nothing more than a rough outline that they threw together while watching reruns of "Friends".

Plus, anyone who knows their history is aware of KCMO's track record when it comes to financial management. They have yet to show any ability in management that a 1st year Business student couldn't display.

I am fully confident that another proposal is well on it's way. Something has to be done and I don't think that this was a one shot deal. I'm hoping that the city doesn't take this vote as "we don't care about Kansas City" because I don't think anything could be further than the truth. If this plan were to have been voted into effect, then I think that would have shown how little people actually care about this city. We knew that this wasn't the best possible option, and now we're challenging the city to draw up the best possible plan to improve the complex, rather than accepting what was proposed.

The "Arts" portion of the deal needs to be separated from the sports. I understand that they're trying to gain votes from those who couldn't care less about sports, and vice versa. But that plan backfired. Now they need to cowboy up (please pardon the expression) and show the people of this city that they can combine their collective intelligence while not taking the people for granted.

[Sig Kauffman]

I really hope they can come up with a plan that voters will like. I'd really hate to see :arrow: or :Royals: leave town. The Sports Complex is one of the things that makes KC so great...it's why I go to Kansas City more than once a year.

I know many Kansas Citians feel the same way I do (that's why Jackson County voted in favor of it) and I just hope another plan comes that will make everyone happy.

[Logical]

whatever ... if you want to argue with me just for the sake of arguing.. then knock yourself out.

but EVEN IF you want to pull a JoPo and twist the numbers

650 + 250 = 900 million

still not "over a billion"

.....

Sorry but your 250 is wrong for a new Baseball park as well.

Petco park (newest park in baseball just opend this year) ran just shy of 500 million total. And it is piece of crap compared to Kaufmann stadium.

[Logical]

If the cost of the Arizona stadium is only 370 million, then I gotta think the number laz posted for the Dallas stadium earlier is the total cost... and the taxpayer burden is half that.

The Arizona stadium is gonna have all kinds of silly shit... retractable roof, retractable field.... what the hell could Dallas have in mind that would cost almost twice as much.

These construction costs do not include the costs for land, building access roads, and other facilitization. Since you have to keep the sports complex open while new stadiums would be built you have to acquire a new site in KC and build all the access. Factor in probably a minimum of 5 years of monetary inflation a billion dollars is a very reasonable estimate.

[Bowser]

These construction costs do not include the costs for land, building access roads, and other facilitization. Since you have to keep the sports complex open while new stadiums would be built you have to acquire a new site in KC and build all the access. Factor in probably a minimum of 5 years of monetary inflation a billion dollars is a very reasonable estimate.

And you know if Snyder has 200+ luxury boxes in Washington, Jerry Jones just HAS to outdo that! :rolleyes:

[VonneMarie]

Dosen't the NFL have a system where you can borrow money from them and pay it back over the next 20-25 years with the money from profits and luxury boxes and stuff?

[Logical]

Dosen't the NFL have a system where you can borrow money from them and pay it back over the next 20-25 years with the money from profits and luxury boxes and stuff?

Only a percentage of the cost (IIRC around 15%) more for a new city getting a new team. Say LA wanted to build a stadium for a new team they could get a bigger loan.