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View Full Version : At least we have been stopping the run...


Red Dawg
11-08-2004, 01:23 PM
pretty well. Compared to last year we are stuffing it completely out.

Bowser
11-08-2004, 01:25 PM
We ARE better on D than last year. And we're 5 games worse than that team was this time last year. Explain THAT to me.

FAX
11-08-2004, 01:26 PM
pretty well. Compared to last year we are stuffing it completely out.

Except for the long runs for touchdowns, you are correct, Mr. Daddy T.

FAX

NewChief
11-08-2004, 01:38 PM
I think we're stopping* the run because it's so freaking easy to pass against us that you'd have to be an idiot to stick mainly to your ground game against us.

*Assuming you consider the travesty that occurred yesterday stopping.

PastorMikH
11-08-2004, 01:40 PM
Why would any team want to run for a few yards on any given play when they can pass for 20?

:shrug:

Gaz
11-08-2004, 01:43 PM
We ARE better on D than last year. And we're 5 games worse than that team was this time last year. Explain THAT to me.

The Incredible Vanishing Offense & no miracle ST returns.

Last season, the O capitalized on chances to put a game away. This year, they have not done so. For all the howling about the D, the Offense has had a chance to put the game away in every one of our losses. They have come up short.

And STs have not been able to contribute like last season.

That is the difference between 2003 & 2004.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not sure where the O vanishes to.

Calcountry
11-08-2004, 01:43 PM
pretty well. Compared to last year we are stuffing it completely out.
You have to start somewhere.

chiefz
11-08-2004, 01:44 PM
If you watch the replay on that long run by Pittman you will see a clear hold on the sholder pads of Hicks while he is being pushed inside.

ROYC75
11-08-2004, 01:45 PM
Are we ? Really ? It appears to be a little better, but in reality it's not.

Last year, our pass defense was better because teams choose to run on us, trying to control the clock and limit our # of rep's on ofense.

This year the pass D is so bad, teams take mor advantage because the 5 yard rule gives the WR's a huge advantage. Teams are passing more on us, or at least it seams that way.

Yes, " if " you can take out the long runs, we are better, BTA, so is our pass D if we take out the long ones.

ROYC75
11-08-2004, 01:49 PM
If you watch the replay on that long run by Pittman you will see a clear hold on the sholder pads of Hicks while he is being pushed inside.

In reality, Mitchell over persued the hole, was an easy block for the pulling guard.

Mitchell needs to time his pursuit, the point of impact to the hole when the HB gets there, if not he better be man enough to shed the block to get the tackle. Mitchell has to look at be blocking going into the hole before he commits his point of attack.

morphius
11-08-2004, 01:52 PM
Gaz - I don't believe it has as much to do with our ST not making the big play, but more with our ST coverage giving up huge play after huge play.

I think penalties are one of the number one thing that is killing us. In our losses we are averaging over 9 a game, I believe. It has kept our O out of sync and lengthened too many drives for our opponents with PI and holding...

FAX
11-08-2004, 01:55 PM
Yes, and if I had pushed a little harder, perhaps it would have come out a little longer.

With all due respect, analyzing a complete dump of a performance by the Chiefs may no longer be an intellectual excercise.

FAX

Gaz
11-08-2004, 01:57 PM
morphius-

I agree that the coverage crew is a big problem with ST this season. We miss Beisel and Boerigter a lot. That is a lot more troubling to me than the return game.

I was simply pointing out the difference between 2003 & 2004, as Bowser requested. Hallís amazing run pulled our hash out of the fire more than once, as I recall.

xoxo~
Gaz
Still hopes for Hall to bust a couple wide open.

chiefz
11-08-2004, 02:18 PM
In reality, Mitchell over persued the hole, was an easy block for the pulling guard.

Mitchell needs to time his pursuit, the point of impact to the hole when the HB gets there, if not he better be man enough to shed the block to get the tackle. Mitchell has to look at be blocking going into the hole before he commits his point of attack.

If he held off any longer he would have missed him completely.

He was right there waiting for Pittman but there was a blocker right in front of him. Warfield had his hands on him but couldn't hold on long enough. If anyone overpursued it was Fujita. He was in the hole and picked up by the tight end 2 seconds before Pittman made it to where he was. To me it appears that Mitchell was right where he was supposed to be but unfortunately there was a blocker right there to. The thing that really bothered me was Wesley was just standing there like he thought Mitchell had instead of being back in a position to make an assist and never even pursued the damned ball until they were running right by him. At least Woods was trying to get over but he was being blocked by two guys.

Rick
11-08-2004, 02:22 PM
Read what Jerome said. They are taught to be so aggressive and get to the ball full speed that when it is misdirection they're screwed. If those bootlegs were simple qb runs he would run for 40 a whack. This "we're gonna kill ya " crap from Gunther isn't good enough. You must be aggressive and disciplined at the same time- that comes with talent and experience- something we don't have much of on that side of the ball.

ROYC75
11-08-2004, 02:23 PM
If he held off any longer he would have missed him completely.

He was right there waiting for Pittman but there was a blocker right in front of him. Warfield had his hands on him but couldn't hold on long enough. If anyone overpursued it was Fujita. He was in the hole and picked up by the tight end 2 seconds before Pittman made it to where he was. To me it appears that Mitchell was right where he was supposed to be but unfortunately there was a blocker right there to. The thing that really bothered me was Wesley was just standing there like he thought Mitchell had instead of being back in a position to make an assist and never even pursued the damned ball until they were running right by him. At least Woods was trying to get over but he was being blocked by two guys.

True when you have a trailing guy on your hip, he didn't and he should of timed his impact when the the HB hit the hole, not before when the pulling guard is there. It's Mitchells fault on that one, plain , pure and simple.

But he was close, right .

A MLB is not going to be there on all plays, if has trouble sheading blocks, he has to be smarter on his attack.

ROYC75
11-08-2004, 02:25 PM
Read what Jerome said. They are taught to be so aggressive and get to the ball full speed that when it is misdirection they're screwed. If those bootlegs were simple qb runs he would run for 40 a whack. This "we're gonna kill ya " crap from Gunther isn't good enough. You must be aggressive and disciplined at the same time- that comes with talent and experience- something we don't have much of on that side of the ball.

A player must contain first, then and only then can he crash his position to the ball carrier. Crashing in first leads to too many broken down defenses...kinda like we have.

chiefz
11-08-2004, 02:32 PM
True when you have a trailing guy on your hip, he didn't and he should of timed his impact when the the HB hit the hole, not before when the pulling guard is there. It's Mitchells fault on that one, plain , pure and simple.

But he was close, right .

A MLB is not going to be there on all plays, if has trouble sheading blocks, he has to be smarter on his attack.

I am not sure I see your point, the blocker was there before Pittman hit the hole and picked up Mitchell just as he was approaching the hole and Pittman was going through it.

Again, watch the video (you can see the highlight reel on buccaneers.com for free) and you can clearly see that Mitchell was about the only player on the defense that was where he was supposed to be. If Fujita had not bit too early and Wesley had been where he was supposed to be we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.

I just watched the video again and no matter how you look at it Mitchell was where he was supposed to be but there was a blocker right there to pick him up.

Warfield made an attempt at a shitty arm tackle, Fujita gets knocked on his ass by a tight end and Wesley runs right by the play at hand before he even knows what the hell is going on.

ROYC75
11-08-2004, 02:43 PM
I am not sure I see your point, the blocker was there before Pittman hit the hole and picked up Mitchell just as he was approaching the hole and Pittman was going through it.

Again, watch the video (you can see the highlight reel on buccaneers.com for free) and you can clearly see that Mitchell was about the only player on the defense that was where he was supposed to be. If Fujita had not bit too early and Wesley had been where he was supposed to be we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.

I just watched the video again and no matter how you look at it Mitchell was where he was supposed to be but there was a blocker right there to pick him up.

Warfield made an attempt at a shitty arm tackle, Fujita gets knocked on his ass by a tight end and Wesley runs right by the play at hand before he even knows what the hell is going on.

OK, you win, Mitchell got there and got blocked , right. How does that help us ?

If he had timed his impact to hiit the HB instead of the pulling guard, he could have made a tackle.

Again, unless you have gang tackling players on a play or you are the baddest mojo around and can shead any block, time your hit after the guard goes thru the hole. If the guard slows down to to block you, the hole is not opened or at least slowed down to allow others to shed off blocks.

Everybody was blocked straight up, Mitchell got there so fast that when the guard turned the corner, he had Mitchell straight up. Touchdown Tampa.

chiefz
11-08-2004, 03:02 PM
OK, you win, Mitchell got there and got blocked , right. How does that help us ?

If he had timed his impact to hiit the HB instead of the pulling guard, he could have made a tackle.

Again, unless you have gang tackling players on a play or you are the baddest mojo around and can shead any block, time your hit after the guard goes thru the hole. If the guard slows down to to block you, the hole is not opened or at least slowed down to allow others to shed off blocks.

Everybody was blocked straight up, Mitchell got there so fast that when the guard turned the corner, he had Mitchell straight up. Touchdown Tampa.

WTF, I win? :rolleyes:

If you want to have a whos right war and act like a child then there is no need in continuing this conversation.

I am telling you that I am watching the damned replay of the play over and over and unless Mitchell has a rocket up his ass and someone else picks up the blocker before he gets there it would be impossible for him to "time his impact to hiit the HB instead of the pulling guard".

You don't have to believe me, watch the video, I watched it at least 8 times and come to the same conclusion, Mitchell holds back until he knows where Pittman is, then pursues and low and behold there is a blocker right in front of him that not a single person touched. I suppose he could have stepped back for another second and watched Pittman run by him, or did a flying sommersault over over the blocker and tackled Pittman.

Now there is only one other flaw that I see, as best I can tell from this video that "pulling guard" that you speak up hits Warfield and Mitchell is actually blocked by the fullback Jameel Cook whom Pittman is directly behind.

Lzen
11-08-2004, 03:09 PM
I have to agree with Roy. I think Mitchell got there fast enough but, he got blocked right out of the play. It appeared to me that he overpursued and then didn't shed his block like he is supposed to do. That long run is on Kawika, IMO. And yes, I did watch the replay.

chiefz
11-08-2004, 03:13 PM
I have to agree with Roy. I think Mitchell got there fast enough but, he got blocked right out of the play. It appeared to me that he overpursued and then didn't shed his block like he is supposed to do. That long run is on Kawika, IMO. And yes, I did watch the replay.

Then you need to watch it again because there were two other defenders right there and one blocker untouched that hits Mitchell when he is right in the running lane while Wesley runs right by the whole thing and turns around just in time to watch them blow right past him.

ROYC75
11-08-2004, 03:21 PM
WTF, I win? :rolleyes:

If you want to have a whos right war and act like a child then there is no need in continuing this conversation.

I am telling you that I am watching the damned replay of the play over and over and unless Mitchell has a rocket up his ass and someone else picks up the blocker before he gets there it would be impossible for him to "time his impact to hiit the HB instead of the pulling guard".

You don't have to believe me, watch the video, I watched it at least 8 times and come to the same conclusion, Mitchell holds back until he knows where Pittman is, then pursues and low and behold there is a blocker right in front of him that not a single person touched. I suppose he could have stepped back for another second and watched Pittman run by him, or did a flying sommersault over over the blocker and tackled Pittman.

Now there is only one other flaw that I see, as best I can tell from this video that "pulling guard" that you speak up hits Warfield and Mitchell is actually blocked by the fullback Jameel Cook whom Pittman is directly behind.

Sorry you fail to see what I'm talking about. The MLB is moving to the left, behind the LOS, the HB is right but has to turn ip field, if the MLB has no other help, he has to time his point of attack as the HB hits the hole, not when the blocker is there.

Mitchell over ran it, got there too fast where he became an easy block instead of making a tackle.

As for a game, I have no games intended, but if you continue failing to see the film as it is, it doesn't matter, you will be right in your own mind.

If you have seen it 8 times, look at it a 9th, look at it as if Mitchell was a step slower, the blocker done came thru the line, BOOM, Mitchell has a tackle.

Watch it again.

chiefz
11-08-2004, 03:28 PM
Sorry you fail to see what I'm talking about. The MLB is moving to the left, behind the LOS, the HB is right but has to turn ip field, if the MLB has no other help, he has to time his point of attack as the HB hits the hole, not when the blocker is there.

Mitchell over ran it, got there too fast where he became an easy block instead of making a tackle.

As for a game, I have no games intended, but if you continue failing to see the film as it is, it doesn't matter, you will be right in your own mind.

If you have seen it 8 times, look at it a 9th, look at it as if Mitchell was a step slower, the blocker done came thru the line, BOOM, Mitchell has a tackle.

Watch it again.

Your entire debate started as Mitchell over pursuing the runner and getting blocked by a pulling guard and you want me to watch the replay again?

Pittman was right on the fullbacks tail, one step slower and Mitchell would have been blocked by the fullback one step to the left and Pittman would have blown by him all the same.

What it boils down to is there was a fullback untouched blocking for a running back that was right behind him running full steam and unless some other player picks up that block Mitchell takes it.

If Wesley had been in position for run support instead of being in front of the play and Fujita had not been immediately knocked on his ass by the tight end pulling inside the fullback would have had to pick them up and Mitchell would have made the tackle.

To think he should have broken a tackle or just ran right through a fullback running full steam and still tackle an RB running full steam is utterly ridiculas.

There might have been a 10th of a second from the time the fullback hits mitchell to the time that Pittman ran by him for him to "time the point of contact".

ROYC75
11-08-2004, 03:34 PM
Whatever, I'm working right now, I have the game taped, I'll re wtach it and see who is right and who is wrong.

The point of others being out of place, I agree on, plus it could very well be a FB instead of the guard, what I do remeber well is that Mitchell got there quick and was an easy target for a blocker.

BRB.

chiefz
11-08-2004, 03:34 PM
FYI:

Just watched it again, there wasn't even that much time. When the fullback hits Mitchell Pittman already has a step to the outside when you pause the video. I would also like to note that Mitchell likely didn't see the fullback until it was too late as it appears that he turns the corner and then comes out from behind Fujita getting drilled with about 1 and 1/2 seconds before impact on Mitchell.

chiefz
11-08-2004, 03:41 PM
Whatever, I'm working right now, I have the game taped, I'll re wtach it and see who is right and who is wrong.

The point of others being out of place, I agree on, plus it could very well be a FB instead of the guard, what I do remeber well is that Mitchell got there quick and was an easy target for a blocker.

BRB.

Thats fine, but if you do watch it, slow it down and pause it you will see that Mitchell was there waiting and got blocked by a fullback running full speed as Pittman runs by him. If he had gotten there any later he would have been standing there with Wesley watching the play go right by him.

I am not saying Mitchell is fabulous by any means but IMO he did the best he could do in that situation and with ANY sort of help at all he would/could have made the play.

At any rate without the hold on the shoulder pads pulling the left end to the inside the play would have been squashed immediately.

The Bad Guy
11-08-2004, 03:44 PM
I really hope Gunther is allowed to bring in his own secondary coach next year.

The constant there is Peter Guinta and he sucks.

Bowser
11-08-2004, 03:53 PM
I really hope Gunther is allowed to bring in his own secondary coach next year.

The constant there is Peter Guinta and he sucks.

Good point.

But remember, Giunta was Vermeil's DC in St Louis in '99!


:rolleyes:

ROYC75
11-08-2004, 04:03 PM
To chiefz ...

I owe you an apology, I got my plays confused, you are correct on this one. Not sure how I confused it with a different play.

Since I have watched it again ....

# 1 Warfield was blocked by the puling guard.
# 2 Mitchell drops back in coverage at the snap
# 3 Fuji is blocked out by the reciever
# 4.Caver was tyied up in a poor block coming down the line, bad on Caver, that was a weak block and no effort from him to get the play.
# 5. Mitchell was attacking head on due to his backing up in coverage
# 6. Wesley didn't come in to seal the run, he played containment to the outside, which was applied to Warfields presence. Bad move by Wesley.
# 7 Woods... Not sure what his problem was, he came into the picture after Pittman had done blown past Mitchell and wesley.

Again I have this particular play confused with a different one I saw that day. My hat is off to you, stand up and take a bow ! :thumb:

OK, Mitchell backed up instead of attacking on a pitch out. He still goofed, right ? :hmmm:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hate this when I'm wrong ! STFU

chiefz
11-08-2004, 04:19 PM
To chiefz ...

I owe you an apology, I got my plays confused, you are correct on this one. Not sure how I confused it with a different play.

Since I have watched it again ....

# 1 Warfield was blocked by the puling guard.
# 2 Mitchell drops back in coverage at the snap
# 3 Fuji is blocked out by the reciever
# 4.Caver was tyied up in a poor block coming down the line, bad on Caver, that was a weak block and no effort from him to get the play.
# 5. Mitchell was attacking head on due to his backing up in coverage
# 6. Wesley didn't come in to seal the run, he played containment to the outside, which was applied to Warfields presence. Bad move by Wesley.
# 7 Woods... Not sure what his problem was, he came into the picture after Pittman had done blown past Mitchell and wesley.

Again I have this particular play confused with a different one I saw that day. My hat is off to you, stand up and take a bow ! :thumb:

OK, Mitchell backed up instead of attacking on a pitch out. He still goofed, right ? :hmmm:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hate this when I'm wrong ! STFU

No problem, I knew you must have been thinking about something else the way you were describing it.

Like I said, I think Mitchell played that better than anyone on the defense but he was pretty well hosed no matter what he did.

Woods I believe got blocked by one guy and then another on the play but still managed to get loose.

I think the boner of the week award has to go to Wesley, outside containment or not I still can't figure out what the **** he was doing.

Its like even after he runs past it he just sits there for a second before he reacts... :hmmm:

Another thing I can't figure out is how the hell Fujita gets blocked so well, he should have cut right through that shit and taken out the fullback.

Oh well, hindsights 20/20 and no offense taken, this is a message board and we are here to discuss the Chiefs.

Actually this is the best discussion I have had all day. :thumb:

ROYC75
11-08-2004, 04:46 PM
Yur right, I was thinking of a different play where Mitchell was moving left alongside the LOS.

Mitchell was attacked head on.... My bad.


After watching that play, I watched a little more and got really depressed !