Carl's words will haunt him...and us

[CHIEFSFAN_NY]

Carl stated in an interview, in defense of retaining last year's defensive players, "I knew what was being asked out of them. The one thing about unrestricted free agency, you know more about your own players than you do by bringing someone else in. I have great confidence in Gunther Cunningham. I think by giving him time, and our players, we will have a defense that we will be proud of. These guys are fine players."

Carl also stated, "If you make a mistake on spending too much money on UFA's, then you go to cap jail, like San Francisco and San Diego." Apparently, San Diego has nice accommodations in their jail cell....


King Carl also mentioned retaining our own players was the way to go and stated, "Unquestionably, the talent (that's here in KC) drives us (to keep our players vs what makes economic sense). You look at what are the potential players we can lose to free agency? Are they ascending? plateauing? descending? The year before we brought in 3 free agents McCleon, Barber and Holliday to improve our defense. They came in, they became starting players. The defense went from 31 to 29. It wasn't enough of an improvement. We looked at Bartee, Dunn, Hicks, Wesley, Woods and Browning and evaluated their performance in '02 and '03 after their contracts were up. I have all of our coaches and personnel rank and rate these guys, I have an independent pro personnel source also rank them and then I do it myself also. I've done it for 25 years. We really felt that these guys were absolutely the right people to retain. I think the simplistic 'proof in the pudding' is if our defense is any better than 29th in defense in the NFL this year."

http://www.61sports.com/audio/store/Doghouse%20-%20Carl%20Peterson.mp3]http://www.61sports.com/audio/store/Doghou...%20Peterson.mp3

[BigRedChief]

that is some whack chit man. This is a fireable offense in just about every NFL town but here.



We looked at Bartee, Dunn, Hicks, Wesley, Woods and Browning and evaluated their performance in '02 and '03 after their contracts were up. I have all of our coaches and personnel rank and rate these guys, I have an independent pro personnel source also rank them and then I do it myself also. I've done it for 25 years. We really felt that these guys were absolutely the right people to retain. I think the simplistic 'proof in the pudding' is if our defense is any better than 29th in defense in the NFL this year."

And the answer is...Dammit Carl! :cuss:

[Dartgod]

I think the simplistic 'proof in the pudding' is if our defense is any better than 29th in defense in the NFL this year."
Well, in his defense, we are ranked 25th right now. :rolleyes:

[mikey23545]

Man, some of you guys are like little Hinckleys, walking around thinking about Carl Peterson and impressing Jodie Foster....

[CHIEFSFAN_NY]

and some of you guys are Carl-lovers. We all have to draw the line somewhere :)

[CHIEFSFAN_NY]

In scoring defense, we're still 29th.

Some will say, "but we played more difficult teams this year."

I say," then it should have been even more obvious last year that our defense sucked."

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-SCORING/2004/regular?sort_col_1=3

[BIG_DADDY]

Well if they do nothing with the 6.6 mill under the cap we will know they really don't give a rats ass about winning especially after raising the price on tickets.

[Calcountry]

Well, in his defense, we are ranked 25th right now. :rolleyes:
Heyyyy, that is a 14 % improvement. :p

[BigRedChief]

Heyyyy, that is a 14 % improvement. :p

And they did it against such offensive juggernauts like Tampa Bay and Carolina ..:hmmm:

[CHIEFSFAN_NY]

Well if they do nothing with the 6.6 mill under the cap we will know they really don't give a rats ass about winning especially after raising the price on tickets.

I'd imagine that some of that will be allocated to the escalating salaries of the offense, but honestly, I'd rather be in "cap jail" and win a SB than to have one of the most prolific offenses in the NFL and watch someone else represent the AFC...

[CHIEFSFAN_NY]

And they did it against such offensive juggernauts like Tampa Bay and Carolina ..:hmmm:
Yeah...Tampa, the same team that hadn't scored more than 20 points all season. I know Carolina has one win. Who was that against?

Thanks for nothing, Carl :mad::cuss:

[Chiefnj]

The defense has problems but are you saying that none of those guys should have been resigned?? If so, how would you have replaced them all taking into consideration how much other players got in free agency?

[tk13]

The best part of it all is that we get to yell at Carl for not bringing in FA's, yet we get to yell at Carl's recent FA pickups like Holliday, Barber, and McCleon... it's a neverending cycle of goodie goodie fun. :)

[BigRedChief]

The defense has problems but are you saying that none of those guys should have been resigned?? If so, how would you have replaced them all taking into consideration how much other players got in free agency?

I would not have resigned Bartee, Browning and Hicks. Thats 10 mil in bonus and cap this year alone. WTF has browning or bartee ever done? At least Hicks had one good season. Who would have guessed that Woods and Wesley would get old so quick. King Carl gets a pass on that one. Dunn was easy and cheap. A no-brainer.

[CHIEFSFAN_NY]

Imagine if our defense had Ian Gold and Troy Vincent? I'm not saying that we shouldn't have resigned all of those players, but thanks to Carl and the scouts he's hired, we're stuck with a bunch of defensive duds that we obtained through the draft like Sims, Battle, Bartee, etc.

The reasons I'm pissed at Carl is because:
1. he finds a way to screw up every draft
2. he knew there was a problem and chose not to address it.

Look at his history of drafting in the first two rounds in the last 14 years:

name..........year...round...overall
Percy Snow 1990 (1-13)
Harvey Williams 1991 (1-21)
Matt Blundin 1992 (2-40)
Greg Hill 1994 (1-25)
Trezelle Jenkins 1995 (1-31)
Kevin Lockett 1997 (2-47)
Victor Riley 1998 (1-27)
Mike Cloud 1999 (2-54)
Sylvester Morris 2000 (1-21)
William Bartee 2000 (2-54)
Ryan Sims 2002 (1-6) He's had MORE than enough time to mature for a 1st rd pick
Eddie Freeman 2002 (2-43)
Larry Johnson 2003 (1-27)...jury's still out
Kawika Mitchell 2003 (2-47) injury riddled...jurys out

Nice 1st and 2nd round track record, Carl . Granted, we have found steals in latter rounds of the draft, but our first two rounds are PATHETIC.

Let's look at how our foes drafted in the first two rounds:

Denver:
John Mobley 1996 (1-15)
Trevor Pryce 1997 (1-28)
Al Wilson 1999 (1-31)
Ian Gold 2000 (2-40)
Clinton Portis 2002 (2-51)

Oakland:
Charles Woodson 1998 (1-4)
Jerry Porter 2000 (2-47)
Phillip Buchanon 2002 (1-17)

San Diego:
Freddie Jones 1997 (2-45)
Ladanian Tomlinson 2001 (1-5)
Drew Brees 2001 (2-32)
Quentin Jammer 2002 (1-5)
Reche Caldwell 2002 (2-48)
Igor Olshansky 2004 (2-35)

What good has come out of bringing in that list of free agents? Do the Chiefs have a SB ring to show for it? No. My point is, with Carl, the pieces are never in place. It's like trying to do a jigsaw puzzle without all the pieces. This years missing pieces are in defending the run, CB and WR. What did Carl do to answer those questionable missing pieces....NOTHING!


Thanks again, Carl, for nothing.

[BigRedChief]

The defense has problems but are you saying that none of those guys should have been resigned?? If so, how would you have replaced them all taking into consideration how much other players got in free agency?

Thats why King Carl must go. We should'nt have to load up or fill our team up with FA. King Carl can't draft so we have no one to plug into those positions and have to go to FA.

[CHIEFSFAN_NY]

You have to honestly question Carl and his rationale in drafting people. We have a horrible draft record for the 1st two rounds, perhaps the worst 1st two round draft record in the NFL. I defy someone to find a worse 1st two round draft record. Now ask yourselves this: who's the brains behind the operation that has allowed this to occur: CARL!!!

[CHIEFSFAN_NY]

Carl Peterson is clearly tired of hearing that the Chiefs sat around and did nothing last winter while many of their NFL peers muscled up.

"There was and there is a method to the so-called madness this off-season," Peterson said. "We didn't just sit on our hands, as some have said. What we did, as an organization, was make an effort to keep our own players. … The philosophy is that you know more about your own players, their strengths and their weaknesses, than you do about someone else's players."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=knig...night&type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=knight-reflectionsonaseasongonea&prov=knight&type=lgns)

In retrospect, I think he just sat around on his hands .

[TEX]

Carl Peterson is clearly tired of hearing that the Chiefs sat around and did nothing last winter while many of their NFL peers muscled up.

"There was and there is a method to the so-called madness this off-season," Peterson said. "We didn't just sit on our hands, as some have said. What we did, as an organization, was make an effort to keep our own players. … The philosophy is that you know more about your own players, their strengths and their weaknesses, than you do about someone else's players."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=knig...night&type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=knight-reflectionsonaseasongonea&prov=knight&type=lgns)

In retrospect, I think he just sat around on his hands .

Yep, and he managed to do it while he was on VACATION! :shake:

[Mr. Laz]

The philosophy is that you know more about your own players, their strengths and their weaknesses, than you do about someone else's players." [/b][/URL]

In retrospect, I think he just sat around on his hands .

the real question is ... If we knew SO MUCH about our existing players then why didnt we know enough to NOT keep them??

[BigRedChief]

If he knows so much about exsisting players WTF is Edwards in a Chargers uniform? He gave 5 or 6 people on this defense bigger contracts after he showed Edwards the door claming no cap room. What a crock. They thought he was on the downhill slope of his career. Another King Carl misjudge on talent.

[Manila-Chief]

the real question is ... If we knew SO MUCH about our existing players then why didnt we know enough to NOT keep them??

Laz has hit the nail on the head. I don't trust Kingless making personnel decisions. I'm not sure if it is his lack of wisdom and/or the scouts and personnel department that he works with.

I agree ... I is time for Carl to go. We are now .... what is it ... 12 years without a playoff win. It is getting embarrassing!!!

16 years is enough time to get a team to the S.B. .... just show him the door coz he didn't even try to sigh quality F.A.'s .... if he had tried and failed I would say ok ... but he was on vacation.

[tk13]

If he knows so much about exsisting players WTF is Edwards in a Chargers uniform? He gave 5 or 6 people on this defense bigger contracts after he showed Edwards the door claming no cap room. What a crock. They thought he was on the downhill slope of his career. Another King Carl misjudge on talent.
Well that was a bad move, but things were different then, remember we had a lot of garbage to clean out (i.e. crap like Dan Williams and Bubby Brister)....

[Fairplay]

Now ask yourselves this: who's the brains behind the operation that has allowed this to occur: CARL!!!




You said brains and Carl in the same sentence. ROFL

[BigRedChief]

Well that was a bad move, but things were different then, remember we had a lot of garbage to clean out (i.e. crap like Dan Williams and Bubby Brister)....

So what does that have to do with Edwards? He hustled. He made plays. He was active in the community. Model citizen. Popular with the fans. Okay lets get rid of him and for good measure lets send Joe Horn packing too.

[gblowfish]

Man, some of you guys are like little Hinckleys, walking around thinking about Carl Peterson and impressing Jodie Foster....
Dearest Jody:

Yesterday I hung out in the shrubbery outside of One Arrowhead Drive waiting...watching...but no sign of King Carl. He torments me. Am I the greatest fan in the NFL, or the greatest fan of Jodie Foster? I don't know... I don't know...It's maddening, confusing, and it's making my brain itch and swell. One thing I do know, I know if I could just grab King Carl and give him a power wedgie in the parking lot that you'd be mine. I know you'd love me then. So I'll continue to stalk him for you, Jodie. I won't stop because I'll be thinking of you the whole time.

It's cold out today, so I'll just stay in my parents basement all day watching Taxi Driver and Maverick over and over and over again.

BTW: why haven't you answered any of my letters? Did you get the letter with the samples of my DNA I mailed to your publicist? Call me....Call me...

Yours,
George "Hinkley" Blowfish
XOXOXOXOX

[Chiefnj]

Here's another way to look at CP's early first round drafts:

1989 - Derrick Thomas. I assume nobody has a problem with this pick.

1990 - Percy Snow. Actually he was a good linebacker. He suffered an unfortunate career ending moped injury; not CP's fault. 3 of the first 4 draft picks that year were Jeff George, Blair Thomas and Kieth McCants. It goes to show that even with a top 5 pick (which KC didn't have) it was tough to evaluate talent.

1991 - Harvey Williams. Arguable a poor pick. However, if you look at the players picked right before and right after Williams it seems like the draft was a pretty poor year. Right before Williams was Vinnie Clark and Kelvin Pritchett. Right after was Stan Thomas, Randall Hill and Todd Marinovich.

1992 - Dale Carter. I assume most people approve of this pick.

1993 - First Round Pick traded for Joe Montana. Since Joe led the Chiefs to the AFC Championship game and the most success the Chiefs have had in the past 20 years I think it was a good move.

From a talent perspective I think CP did very well 4 out of those 5 years.

[milkman]

Here's another way to look at CP's early first round drafts:

1989 - Derrick Thomas. I assume nobody has a problem with this pick.

Agreed.

1990 - Percy Snow. Actually he was a good linebacker. He suffered an unfortunate career ending moped injury; not CP's fault. 3 of the first 4 draft picks that year were Jeff George, Blair Thomas and Kieth McCants. It goes to show that even with a top 5 pick (which KC didn't have) it was tough to evaluate talent.[/QOUTE]

Again I would agree, but I also would like to see the draft record of those who drafted these players and compare it to Carl's

[QUOTE=Chiefnj]1991 - Harvey Williams. Arguable a poor pick. However, if you look at the players picked right before and right after Williams it seems like the draft was a pretty poor year. Right before Williams was Vinnie Clark and Kelvin Pritchett. Right after was Stan Thomas, Randall Hill and Todd Marinovich.[/Qoute]

One could also argue that had Marty given Williams a real opportunity, that he might well be considered among the best picks that Carl has ever made.

[QUOTE=Chiefnj]1992 - Dale Carter. I assume most people approve of this pick.

I'll give you this one, though I would think that Carl might have been aware of the 10 cent head issue.

1993 - First Round Pick traded for Joe Montana. Since Joe led the Chiefs to the AFC Championship game and the most success the Chiefs have had in the past 20 years I think it was a good move.

From a talent perspective I think CP did very well 4 out of those 5 years.

I still contend, and will never be convinced otherwise, that it was not a good move.

I still believe that signing Steve Buerlein in FA, and using that draft pick (which I believe the 9ers used to pick Stubblefield) would have been a better alternative than trading away the future for a QB that only had 2-3 years left. (It turned out to be only 2)

Sure Montana took this team to the AFC Championship.
To that I say "Big Freakin' Deal".

He didn't get it done.
Period. End of story.

[BigRedChief]

Here's another way to look at CP's early first round drafts:

1989 - Derrick Thomas. I assume nobody has a problem with this pick.

1990 - Percy Snow. Actually he was a good linebacker. He suffered an unfortunate career ending moped injury; not CP's fault. 3 of the first 4 draft picks that year were Jeff George, Blair Thomas and Kieth McCants. It goes to show that even with a top 5 pick (which KC didn't have) it was tough to evaluate talent.

1991 - Harvey Williams. Arguable a poor pick. However, if you look at the players picked right before and right after Williams it seems like the draft was a pretty poor year. Right before Williams was Vinnie Clark and Kelvin Pritchett. Right after was Stan Thomas, Randall Hill and Todd Marinovich.

1992 - Dale Carter. I assume most people approve of this pick.

1993 - First Round Pick traded for Joe Montana. Since Joe led the Chiefs to the AFC Championship game and the most success the Chiefs have had in the past 20 years I think it was a good move.

From a talent perspective I think CP did very well 4 out of those 5 years.

That was 10 years ago. WTF has he done lately? Maybe thats why we havent won a playoff game in 10 years.

[Chiefnj]

Sure Montana took this team to the AFC Championship.
To that I say "Big Freakin' Deal".

He didn't get it done.
Period. End of story.

To have gone from where the Chiefs were in the 70s and 80s to the AFC Championship game in the early 90's was a BIG deal.

[philfree]

To have gone from where the Chiefs were in the 70s and 80s to the AFC Championship game in the early 90's was a BIG deal.

It was, it was! Personally I don't buy the win it all or it's all a waste mentality. There's just to much hard work that goes into the whole thing IMO.


PhilFree :arrow:

[milkman]

To have gone from where the Chiefs were in the 70s and 80s to the AFC Championship game in the early 90's was a BIG deal.

The point is, is that Carl used a 1st round pick on what turned out to be a 2 year investment.
With Carl's overall record, maybe that was the best we could hope for.

I even think Montana did an outstanding job of overcoming Martyocre and Hackett, and an overall lack of offensive talent at the skill positions to get this team to that AFC final.

But I also think that in making the trade for Montana, Carl mortgaged the future for a shot at getting to the SB, and it failed.

[Manila-Chief]

Lame excuse! Let's see since 1970 how many AFC championship have we won? How many times have we played in the S.B.? How many rings have we won?

Almost every other team in the league have been since we have ... well, maybe the Jets and a bunch of real losers. Surely a competent G.M. could get us the players to at least get us into one S.B. in 35 years?????

[Chiefnj]

Peterson's next 5 years:

1994 - Gregg Hill. Kind of a controversial player/topic. Was he any good or did he suffer from a Marty prejudice? I don't know. In any event drafting a player your coach doesn't like or think is a good fit is poor, IMO. The players drafted right before and after him were no names Shante Carver and Henry Ford.

1995 - Trezelle. Bust. No doubt about it, a horrible pick.

1996 - Woods with the 28th pick. Very good pick. I know he has lost a step now 9 seasons later but he has been a solid starter and Pro Bowler for almost a decade.

1997 - Tony Gonzalez. Great pick.

1998 - Victor Riley with the 27th pick. Some will disagree but I think Riley was a good pick for very late in round 1. Because of injury he was forced to play early and he was a solid T for a few years.


I'd rate this second "5 year plan" as 3 good/very good and 2 poor/very bad.

[Manila-Chief]

It was, it was! Personally I don't buy the win it all or it's all a waste mentality. There's just to much hard work that goes into the whole thing IMO.


PhilFree :arrow:

Phil, I don't mean this personal but I think that kind of an attitudes is what allows Carl to stay on and keep us from getting a qualified G.M. It's the attitude of "that's okay" ... "a winning season and get beat in the first round of the playoff." He knows fans are okay with "just a winning season" ... they will keep spending their money. When fans get mad ... start demanding a championship ... maybe even stop spending money on the team ... maybe he would get the message.

IMHO his only motive is to make a profit for Lamar. Oh, yea, he will talk about winning but when all is said and done his highest motive is profit.

I don't like Jerry Jones of Dallas or Al Davis .... but one thing you can say for them is they have a desire to win and put their money and effort towards winning it all.

[KC Jones]

THE PROBLEM is not that we aren't spending enough in FA. For the most part we do a good job of spending wisely in FA (Holmes, Roaf, Dalton, etc.). The problem is that we require FAs to provide our base talent pool for our football team. We need to do better in the draft. The offense should still be pretty much in tact next season, so I see the window as still open for one more year. Start the rebuilding process with the defense this offseason. Next offseason gut the team and spend several years in football hell while we rebuild the roster with young draft picks.

Siavii, Fujita, and Allen are a good start for young defensive talent. At least I think Siavii will be as he develops.

[philfree]

Phil, I don't mean this personal but I think that kind of an attitudes is what allows Carl to stay on


I'm pretty sure my attitude has nothing to do with it.

I want to win it all as bad as the next guy I just try to keep a little perspective on the whole thing. If you look at our playoff loses it's pretty easy to see why we lost those games and IMO it wasn't Carl's fault. Turnovers, missed FGs and suspect officiating. I'm not a Carl lover by any means but I know where this franchise was before he came on board. By the end of 2005 and DVs tenure I'll dlook at where we are and I may form an opinion that Carl's time is over but I ain't there yet.

PhilFree :arrow:

[milkman]

Turnovers, missed FGs, and suspect officiating are all nothing but excuses.

If this team had talent on offense, and/or a coaching staff that had any clue how to utilize that talent, then we could have had at least 2 trips to the SB in the 90s.

We didn't, and the blame falls squarely at the feet of Carl's piss poor talent evaluation skills, and at Martyocre's play not to lose philosophy.

[CHIEFSFAN_NY]

Carl's incredibly poor history of drafting has put us in the position where we NEED to acquire free agents, because he ****ed up and drafted poorly. IMO, the reason he didn't bring in any FA's was because he wanted to prove that "his" drafted players were the right picks. Bringing in free agents means he ****ed up at evaluating talent and King Carl's ego won't allow that to happen.

[philfree]

Turnovers, missed FGs, and suspect officiating are all nothing but excuses.

Well at least all those things were things that did happen and help lead to the playoff losses. Facts I guess one could say.

If this team had talent on offense, and/or a coaching staff that had any clue how to utilize that talent, then we could have had at least 2 trips to the SB in the 90s.


This on the other hand is nothing but opinion.


PhilFree :arrow:

[Tribal Warfare]

Well my sig is a factual that King Carl said

[tk13]

So what does that have to do with Edwards? He hustled. He made plays. He was active in the community. Model citizen. Popular with the fans. Okay lets get rid of him and for good measure lets send Joe Horn packing too.
What do you mean what does that have to do with Edwards? You sat there and made your own point then ask me what the point was. We cut Edwards for salary cap reasons... you're right, you said it yourself. In 2001 and 2002 the Chiefs cleared 37 million dollars in "dead money" off the books because we didn't have much room under the salary cap. That's the way things work usually, you just can't sit there up against the cap in actual dollars forever, eventually you have to cut the fat and start over, which is why this team had to rebuild to begin with. That's the purpose of the salary cap, to keep somebody from being the Yankees. Donnie Edwards was part of that, no it wasn't a good move in retrospect, but that's part of being in the NFL, it doesn't allow you to keep all your best players. If we went up to the salary cap this year, we'd either have to convince a bunch of guys to restructure next year, or cut some people to get under the cap and take on some dead money.

[BigRedChief]

King Carl says:
I think the simplistic 'proof in the pudding' is if our defense is any better than 29th in defense in the NFL this year."

Guess what King Carl, news flash for ya....You suck at evaluating talent.