Did Gunther cause us to not go make any major defensive upgrades?

[DaWolf]

Consider this scenario:
Carl goes to Gun and begs him to come back.

Gun could demand anything at this point, including upgraded talent on D or an entirely new coaching staff (he decided to only replace Vitt with Pagac from Chokeland), but decides that he can take the same players and turn them into a good defense, making him look like a savior and a hero in KC, because he's got an ego nearly as big as Carl's (as we learned from his days as the HC here).

He tells us he's not even going to look at last year's film and just wants to get together with the players and start fresh.

He tells Carl to make sure he resigns his boys Hicks, Wesley, Woods and Bartee, because he knows how to coach those guys.

Carl does just that, plus signs Dalton and drafts Siavvi, whom Gun really likes.

Gun convinces Carl that he can turn Sims into a player (just as he convinced Carl he could turn Chester McGlockton and Dan Williams into players).

Carl gets the sense from all of this that we really don't need much more on D because Gun has most of the players he wants and will coach them to success, and that should be enough with the offense we had.

So my question is: Would we have been better off if Gun had declined to return and we had gone out and gotten someone totally detatched from KC who could have come in and taken a cold, unemotional look at our D and stated that so and so shouldn't be back, let's find someone else to play this position for us? Or is Gun totally not at fault here and he just decided to take the job with his hands tied?

Of course this is not meant in any way to absolve Carl of the blame. In fact he probably hired Gun because he knew that Gun would be more likely to coach the guys we already had so in the long run it would be cheaper AND get the people in KC excited even though no other defensive changes were being made.

[royr17]

Actually i think the reason Gun didnt want the chiefs to bring new players in for is because he wanted to evaluate what we have so that after the season he can have a idea of what he wants for his defense. Thats why i think we didnt bring in any new players for the defense.

[Fairplay]

You're just speculateing on what Gunther told Carl. Who knows what went on. I still blame Peterson for being a tightwad.

[elvomito]

don't forget the prevailing idea at the time was that the previous coordinator was at fault, he made players "think" too much

[Fairplay]

don't forget the prevailing idea at the time was that the previous coordinator was at fault, he made players "think" too much




True. Whose to say Vermiel isn't partly to blame. He may have said with Gun our defensive players we have now will work fine under his scheme.

[MichaelH]

We can all speculate until the cows come home. The bottom line is the talent on defense hadn't been properly evaluated by the former coaching staff and now it is. The only problem is it's during the season.

[htismaqe]

I 100% believe that Gunther told Vermeil and Peterson that we didn't need new players.

He's always been an "I/ME" guy. There's no reason to believe that he didn't say "I can do this with the guys we have."

[Wile_E_Coyote]

I think that Gun knew there would be no major signings this season. Those they signed were mostly cheap. He would have this season to work with what the Chiefs had & next season they would make the moves to make a run. DV's fifth & final year.

I don't believe they really thought they had the talent. And you sure don't tell the team or the fans that

[JakeT]

I'm confident that Carl (unable to evaluate talent) Peterson felt like he had done a lot last year by signing "big name" free agents McCLeon, Holiday and Barber. He looked at his D and thought that the many young players he drafted like Ryan Sims, Eddie Freeman, Scott Fujita, and Kawika Mitchell were destined for greatness. He looked at his solid veterans the 6 million dollar man Eric Warfiled, Wesley and Woods and thougth the problem HAD TO BE SOLEY THE SCHEME. Gun told him what he wanted to hear. No way peterson was going to shell out more $$ and write off his last 4 years worth of work. If he trusts Gunther like I think he does, we should get our upgrades after this season is over when Gun can tell him what he really has.

[BigRedChief]

The problem is King Carl If we would have drafted better we wouldn't be scrounging around for players all the time or having to take risks on FA.

[Ghostof]

I think next years defense wil be the shizit...just because Gun will know what to the defense needs in the coming draft.


I think everyone just needs to have patience, considering all the injuries that the offense and defense has, people are expecting too much of a turn around.

Its going to be a slow process, because the players were used to G-Robs ways. It takes time to go from a passive/waiting defense to an all out blitz kill the bar carrier defense.

Next year...better defense...same offense...killer schedule...and playoff bound.


This year...learning and evaluating.

[Wile_E_Coyote]

Hicks- around league min.
Bartee-only Jets shown interest
Wesley-1 year deal
Woods-looks like they overpaid right now

next year out from under, Holiday & Barber. McCleon?

If they are 6 mil under, they can re-sign those they want under this years cap

[MOhillbilly]

NO its Carl and DV ego that Fd-us on the D.

[MichaelH]

I think next years defense wil be the shizit...just because Gun will know what to the defense needs in the coming draft.


I think everyone just needs to have patience, considering all the injuries that the offense and defense has, people are expecting too much of a turn around.

Its going to be a slow process, because the players were used to G-Robs ways. It takes time to go from a passive/waiting defense to an all out blitz kill the bar carrier defense.

Next year...better defense...same offense...killer schedule...and playoff bound.


This year...learning and evaluating.

Agreed, but why is it always next year with the Chiefs?? It seems every year by Thanksgiving, the feeling is we'll get it next year. :(

[BigRedChief]

I think next years defense wil be the shizit...just because Gun will know what to the defense needs in the coming draft.


I think everyone just needs to have patience, considering all the injuries that the offense and defense has, people are expecting too much of a turn around.

Its going to be a slow process, because the players were used to G-Robs ways. It takes time to go from a passive/waiting defense to an all out blitz kill the bar carrier defense.

Next year...better defense...same offense...killer schedule...and playoff bound.


This year...learning and evaluating.

We don't need any stinking patience. Next year the window is closed.

There are no "easy" scedules any more. 14 out 0f 16 games are already scheduled though 2009. Your finish in the standings only effects 2 out of 16 games each year.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I'm sure Gunther would have liked a free agent or two...I just think Carl and Dick are greedy, out-of-touch, dillusional bastards...

...but what do I know...?

[BigRedChief]

I'm sure Gunther would have liked a free agent or two...I just think Carl and Dick are greedy, out-of-touch, dillusional bastards

Go ahead say what you really mean...ROFL

[Mr. Laz]

Consider this scenario:
Carl goes to Gun and begs him to come back.

Gun could demand anything at this point, including upgraded talent on D or an entirely new coaching staff (he decided to only replace Vitt with Pagac from Chokeland), but decides that he can take the same players and turn them into a good defense, making him look like a savior and a hero in KC, because he's got an ego nearly as big as Carl's (as we learned from his days as the HC here)
yea... that's it... lets try and do are best to blame anyone but Carl


by all means, been doing for last 15 yrs ... lets continue.

[RedandGold]

From the standpoint of a fan, it's easy to criticize the move to not make any significant changes in personnel. Believe me, I'm one of them.

However, I can understand why Gun would want a season to see how the players performed under his scheme. Considering the differences between his and Robinson's approach, why would he want to make wholesale changes in personnel without seeing if the existing players could be salvaged?

I know this is just a hypothetical situation, but it does make you think about things a bit. With the way things have gone, I have a difficult time believing that we will use the same strategy this offseason towards defensive personnel.

[farmerchief]

[QUOTE=Ghostof]I think next years defense wil be the shizit...just because Gun will know what to the defense needs in the coming draft.


We don't have THAT many draft picks, do we???????? :rolleyes:

[go bo]

[QUOTE=Ghostof]I think next years defense wil be the shizit...just because Gun will know what to the defense needs in the coming draft.


We don't have THAT many draft picks, do we???????? :rolleyes:ROFL ROFL ROFL

and even if we did, dv won't play a bunch of rookies anyway... :(

[kansas hawk]

I think next years defense wil be the shizit...just because Gun will know what to the defense needs in the coming draft.


I think everyone just needs to have patience, considering all the injuries that the offense and defense has, people are expecting too much of a turn around.

Its going to be a slow process, because the players were used to G-Robs ways. It takes time to go from a passive/waiting defense to an all out blitz kill the bar carrier defense.

Next year...better defense...same offense...killer schedule...and playoff bound.


This year...learning and evaluating.


i agree with this however people want to see some kind of improvement. as of right now you be hard pressed to really find any. we gave up less points last year and froced more turnovers and the tackling is still really bad. oh well ,maybe it be better next year, i not holding my breath though. from what i understand they can't really move alot of people