I want our next HC to be the DC from the Pats

[Red Dawg]

that guy must be a miracle worker. They've had a ton of injuroes and still field a great defense. That's who I want after DV.

[MichaelH]

It's been the norm around the league to hire a DC to be the head coach. It seems to work as long as the balance on both sides of the ball isn't forgotten.

[siberian khatru]

And bring Scott Pioli with him.

[bideau]

that guy must be a miracle worker. They've had a ton of injuroes and still field a great defense. That's who I want after DV.

Romeo Crennel would be a great choice. He's spent the last 20+ years working under both Parcells and Belichick. Can't find better teachers than those two. Many mistakenly believe that Belichick controls the defense. Everything you see is Crennel's doing. Belichick gave him the blueprint and Crennel has taken it and put his own touches on it. The game plans and game time calls are all his.

Pats fans expected to lose him after last season. Why no one hired him is still a mystery. Although we'll be sad to see him leave, everyone here realizes that its time for him to get a HC job. As long as its not with a division rival.

[HC_Chief]

I've been saying this for about a month now. Romeo Crennel for KC Head Coach in 2005!! :thumb:

(I also love the idea of bringing Pioli with him... don't know how realistic that hope is)

[BigRedChief]

And bring Scott Pioli with him.

What he said! :thumb:

[bideau]

And bring Scott Pioli with him.

Pioli's not going anywhere. He's under contract through the 2006 draft. He's got language in his contract that prohibits teams from talking to him.

If you want info on our coordinator and Pioli, here's a link to an article from today's Boston Herald.

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=54428

[Amnorix]

Your timing is excellent. A very long and good piece was written by Felger in today's Boston Herald about the credentials of Weis, RAC (Romeo Crennel's nickname) and Pioli, and the contractual limitations on Pioli's moving to another team.

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=54428

[Amnorix]

Pioli's not going anywhere. He's under contract through the 2006 draft. He's got language in his contract that prohibits teams from talking to him.

If you want info on our coordinator and Pioli, here's a link to an article from today's Boston Herald.

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=54428

You beat me by two steeenking minutes! Bastard! :)

[siberian khatru]

Pioli's not going anywhere. He's under contract through the 2006 draft. He's got language in his contract that prohibits teams from talking to him.

If you want info on our coordinator and Pioli, here's a link to an article from today's Boston Herald.

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=54428

That's a great story. Thanks for the link. :thumb:

[bideau]

You beat me by two steeenking minutes! Bastard! :)

There's nothing like "trolling" message boards when you're trying to avoid real work :D

[teedubya]

I've been saying this for about a month now. Romeo Crennel for KC Head Coach in 2005!! :thumb:

(I also love the idea of bringing Pioli with him... don't know how realistic that hope is)

imagine how many patriot trolls we would convert to full time posters, if that occured. those guys will never leave us. :cuss: you guys have all the luck...

[Undertaker #59]

imagine how many patriot trolls we would convert to full time posters, if that occured. those guys will never leave us. :cuss: you guys have all the luck...


Paying off the referees helps a bunch too. :rolleyes: :p

[BigRedChief]

Big Freaking Deal. If Pioli wants out he can get out. Lawyer fees and a messy divorce may be neccesary but it's doable. Should he be classified as a high ranking employee? Courts side with employees all the time in these disputes. I wouldn't be so sure about keeping Pioli, you Super Bowl hogs. :harumph:

[Annihilus]

It was a near miracle that the Pats managed to keep both Crennell and Weis last year, and I have a feeling that they'll have suitors lined up at their doors ten deep this time around. Most of us Pats fans are pretty much resigned to the fact that we're losing both of them after the season is over - where they go is the big question mark.

And for those of you wishful thinkers....Pioli isn't leaving. Word has it that he's very happy where he's at.

[bideau]

imagine how many patriot trolls we would convert to full time posters, if that occured. those guys will never leave us. :cuss: you guys have all the luck...

Yeah, we get the "luck" bit thrown at us quite a bit. But luck is the byproduct of solid preparation.

Most Pats fans really want to see Crennel succeed with any team other than the Fins, Jets or Bills. His successor is already known. Eric Mangini, the DB coach who's been a Belichick protege for many years.

Our OC, Charlie Weis is another story. He can be quite aggravating in his inconsistent play calling. But his work with Brady and his use of available personnel has earned him high praise. Speculation is that he may be heading to Miami. His successor is not as clear. Belichick may go outside the organization.

[HC_Chief]

I'm not big on Weis... never have been.

Crennel, on the other hand, is due.

[BigRedChief]

And for those of you wishful thinkers....Pioli isn't leaving. Word has it that he's very happy where he's at.

KC BBQ, His own team to run out of Bellacheck's shadow and a truckful of money would also make him happy.:p

[teedubya]

if NE wins another SB... look for Pioli to find a new challenge on his own.

Region of Champions! Bah!!!1 [ i was rooting for the Red Sox though...]

[Annihilus]

KC BBQ, His own team to run out of Bellacheck's shadow and a truckful of money would also make him happy.:p

Heh heh - yeah, I'm sure you're right about that - but he and BB are pretty good friends, so I'm not so sure he thinks of himself in BB's shadow, especially since he got the NFL executive of the year award last year and gets nearly as much praise as BB when it comes to the Pats success.

I do understand how wishfull thinking works though, and here's to hoping that makes you happy ;)

[Brock]

I thought Pioli was UNDER CONTRACT.

[Undertaker #59]

I thought Pioli was UNDER CONTRACT.



He is. Through the draft of 2006. He is not going anywhere.

[teedubya]

New England Region has Bellichek, Pioli, the Patriots, Referees, Paul Pierce, Curt Schilling, and the Red Sox... what a crock...

[Swanman]

It was a near miracle that the Pats managed to keep both Crennell and Weis last year, and I have a feeling that they'll have suitors lined up at their doors ten deep this time around. Most of us Pats fans are pretty much resigned to the fact that we're losing both of them after the season is over - where they go is the big question mark.

And for those of you wishful thinkers....Pioli isn't leaving. Word has it that he's very happy where he's at.

That was very surprising that the Pats held onto both coordinators, because both of their names came up in just about every job opening. I guess there's a certain allure to being with a winning organization.

The thing that impresses me about the Pats is that they have a lot of good football players. What I mean by that is they have players that are good at their position, but they're willing and able to play other positions if the team needs it. Troy Brown and Mike Vrabel come to mind. I loved the quote from Brown when asked about what he told Bellichek about playing nickel corner - "I'm a football player". Most prima-donnas in this league would be worried about their receiving stats going down, but players on the Pats are just concerned about winning and that impresses me a lot.

[bideau]

New England Region has Bellichek, Pioli, the Patriots, Referees, Paul Pierce, Curt Schilling, and the Red Sox... what a crock...

Yeah, but the refs are costing us more money than all the others combined. They really drive a hard bargain.

[BigRedChief]

He is. Through the draft of 2006. He is not going anywhere.

So in this land of 10 million lawyers your saying that Pioli's contract is unbreakable huh?

[KCTitus]

Yeah, we get the "luck" bit thrown at us quite a bit. But luck is the byproduct of solid preparation.

With good reason...NE hit the lottery with Brady. It would be like KC all the sudden finding a 6th round pick that was as good as Derrick Thomas.

[BigRedChief]

I do understand how wishfull thinking works though, and here's to hoping that makes you happy ;)

Have we won 2 out of the last 3 Super Bowls? The World Series? You read the papers? Watch ESPN? WTF else we got to go on? :banghead:

[Annihilus]

So in this land of 10 million lawyers your saying that Pioli's contract is unbreakable huh?

Oh no, I'm not saying that at all there Chief. If he wanted to leave, I have no doubt that he could manage it. I just don't think that he wants to leave.

Of course anything could happen, but I'm pretty sure that's the least of the Pats worries after this season. I think the biggest challenge (if not the most interesting one) in the front office will be replacing Weis.

[Swanman]

With good reason...NE hit the lottery with Brady. It would be like KC all the sudden finding a 6th round pick that was as good as Derrick Thomas.

The Eugene Wilson draft pick was a mix of luck and great talent evaluation. Getting a guy in the 2nd/3rd round as a corner and turning him into one of the better hard-hitting safeties is a pretty fortunate turn of events. Luck definitely plays into it, but in that case the coaches/front office saw something that others didn't and that's where you get the advantage. I watched Eugene play for four years at Illinois, and he SUCKED his senior year after a great junior year so I was even surprised he went as high as he did. CP could take about 10,578 lessons from the Pats front office.

[bideau]

That was very surprising that the Pats held onto both coordinators, because both of their names came up in just about every job opening. I guess there's a certain allure to being with a winning organization.

The thing that impresses me about the Pats is that they have a lot of good football players. What I mean by that is they have players that are good at their position, but they're willing and able to play other positions if the team needs it. Troy Brown and Mike Vrabel come to mind. I loved the quote from Brown when asked about what he told Bellichek about playing nickel corner - "I'm a football player". Most prima-donnas in this league would be worried about their receiving stats going down, but players on the Pats are just concerned about winning and that impresses me a lot.

A little known fact about the Pats is that they have more players making $1 million+ than any other team. They believe that you don't need the best player at a few positions, but you need a top 10 player at most positions. The team is built on depth. At this time of year when starters are going down, the Pats are pluggin in a player that is not great, but at least very good.

Depth also helps keep players fresh during the games. The Pats rotate six defensive linemen and seven linebackers continuously throughout the game . Earlier in the season, they were using seven offensive linemen. Injuries have put a stop to that (it's currently one of the two thinnest positions on the team along with DB).

[Annihilus]

The thing that impresses me about the Pats is that they have a lot of good football players. What I mean by that is they have players that are good at their position, but they're willing and able to play other positions if the team needs it. Troy Brown and Mike Vrabel come to mind. I loved the quote from Brown when asked about what he told Bellichek about playing nickel corner - "I'm a football player". Most prima-donnas in this league would be worried about their receiving stats going down, but players on the Pats are just concerned about winning and that impresses me a lot.

As fans I can tell you that we all love that attitude too - and we have all become very spoiled during the last three years because of it. It's almost like living in a dream and is very weird to see other cities starting to hate you because of it. VERY weird, but not altogether unpleasant.

As a 20 year Pats fan, I am enjoying this ride immensely, but know that it won't last forever and one of these days the other shoe will drop and we'll be that 1-15 team that everyone laughs at. I just hope that day is a long time coming.....

[Brock]

So in this land of 10 million lawyers your saying that Pioli's contract is unbreakable huh?

Like Lamar Hunt would even put forth the effort of a phone call.

[KCTitus]

The Eugene Wilson draft pick was a mix of luck and great talent evaluation. Getting a guy in the 2nd/3rd round as a corner and turning him into one of the better hard-hitting safeties is a pretty fortunate turn of events. Luck definitely plays into it, but in that case the coaches/front office saw something that others didn't and that's where you get the advantage. I watched Eugene play for four years at Illinois, and he SUCKED his senior year after a great junior year so I was even surprised he went as high as he did. CP could take about 10,578 lessons from the Pats front office.

I really dont know where you got Eugene Wilson out of my Brady reference...

NE was mediocre at best with Bledsoe as QB. It all turned around when Brady came in that year. I believe NE started the season 1-3 that year.

If KC got a playmaker on Defense the equal to what Brady did for NE's offense this team and last years team are SB material.

[Annihilus]

Depth also helps keep players fresh during the games. The Pats rotate six defensive linemen and seven linebackers continuously throughout the game . Earlier in the season, they were using seven offensive linemen. Injuries have put a stop to that (it's currently one of the two thinnest positions on the team along with DB).

Keeping in the spirit of this thread and Co-ordinators - The Pats are pretty deep as far as coaches go too. BB's been around the block for a long time and knows a lot of people. If there ever was a plug & play coaching staff, he's developing it now. I am very curious to see how RAC & Weis do outside of the system (not to mention how their replacements do).

[bideau]

The Eugene Wilson draft pick was a mix of luck and great talent evaluation. Getting a guy in the 2nd/3rd round as a corner and turning him into one of the better hard-hitting safeties is a pretty fortunate turn of events. Luck definitely plays into it, but in that case the coaches/front office saw something that others didn't and that's where you get the advantage. I watched Eugene play for four years at Illinois, and he SUCKED his senior year after a great junior year so I was even surprised he went as high as he did. CP could take about 10,578 lessons from the Pats front office.

The Wilson move to free safety was born out of necessity. Milloy had just been cut and his replacement sucked badly. The coaches liked Wilson's effort and figured they'd give it a try. He's learned his hitting from Harrison and already had basic cover skills. He may someday move back to corner, but I think he's found his niche.

[the Talking Can]

I love DV, but I hope he retires....I can't see what's gained by coming back for a lame-duck year....Crennel is certainly worth a look, but we've got problems with contracts (Sims/LJ/Woods/Hicks/Browning) that will make it difficult to turn over the roster and I think in two years Roaf/holmes/Shields/T-Rich/Kennison/Morton will have all retired which means we have a crap load of crucial decisions to make that will determine if we become a good team or the Bengals.....I don't want CP or DV making any of those decisions and I want all our scouting staff to rot in hell

[Undertaker #59]

So in this land of 10 million lawyers your saying that Pioli's contract is unbreakable huh?

No...but as Jonathon Kraft pointed out - the Chiefs could want to talk to Belichick or Brady also. But they are under contract. It would have to be worked out as a trade.

[HC_Chief]

Here's LJ... now let us talk to Pioli and Crennel :D

[BigRedChief]

Here's LJ... now let us talk to Pioli and Crennel :D

We will throw in Bartee and McCleon also.ROFL

[Swanman]

I really dont know where you got Eugene Wilson out of my Brady reference...

NE was mediocre at best with Bledsoe as QB. It all turned around when Brady came in that year. I believe NE started the season 1-3 that year.

If KC got a playmaker on Defense the equal to what Brady did for NE's offense this team and last years team are SB material.

Wilson was another relative no-name in the draft that made an immediate impact on the team.

[BigRedChief]

No...but as Jonathon Kraft pointed out - the Chiefs could want to talk to Belichick or Brady also. But they are under contract. It would have to be worked out as a trade.

Both you and I know that if he wants out he will get out. Running his own team has to be a big allure. Lamar pays his GM/CEO/Presidents real well. Got a fanatical fan base in place. Not a bad deal for him.

[Swanman]

The Wilson move to free safety was born out of necessity. Milloy had just been cut and his replacement sucked badly. The coaches liked Wilson's effort and figured they'd give it a try. He's learned his hitting from Harrison and already had basic cover skills. He may someday move back to corner, but I think he's found his niche.

I wish the Chiefs front office/coaches would learn from this. It's much easier to move a guy that was a corner into a safety than try to turn a safety into a corner.

Wilson's cover skills deteriorated badly his last season at Illinois due to the stupid defensive scheme they run (and their personnel sucked). They'd blitz all the time leaving the corners on an island so they were forced to give huge cushions (sound familiar?) and then tackle the receiver after a 10 yard catch. So he got real good at tackling but he wasn't able to hone his cover skills in that scheme.

[bideau]

Here's LJ... now let us talk to Pioli and Crennel :D

Sorry, but for Pioli, that'll cost you a 1st rounder in the next draft, not a busted 1st rounder from two years ago. Crennel will cost you nothing since the Pats can't stop him from moving if he gets offered a HC position.

[KCTitus]

Wilson was another relative no-name in the draft that made an immediate impact on the team.

Ok, but the point I was trying to make was that it wasnt NE's defense that need upgrading it was the QB and OL that were really bad before '01. They rebuilt the OL with a number for UDFA's and 4-7th round picks , but that still wasnt enough until Brady stepped behind center. Then everything changed. Guy just made plays that had to be made.

That would be like KC discovering a DT or Ray Lewis after the previous starter went down.

[HC_Chief]

Rich Scanlon

[bideau]

I wish the Chiefs front office/coaches would learn from this. It's much easier to move a guy that was a corner into a safety than try to turn a safety into a corner.

Wilson's cover skills deteriorated badly his last season at Illinois due to the stupid defensive scheme they run (and their personnel sucked). They'd blitz all the time leaving the corners on an island so they were forced to give huge cushions (sound familiar?) and then tackle the receiver after a 10 yard catch. So he got real good at tackling but he wasn't able to hone his cover skills in that scheme.

I remember Belichick talking about that after they drafted him. They actually went back and looked at his junior year and came to the same conclusion that you did.

[Undertaker #59]

Both you and I know that if he wants out he will get out. Running his own team has to be a big allure. Lamar pays his GM/CEO/Presidents real well. Got a fanatical fan base in place. Not a bad deal for him.


Well, that's just speculation. He has a great partnership with Belichick and the two are close friends. None of us really know what his motivations are.

[Amnorix]

As a 20 year Pats fan, I am enjoying this ride immensely, but know that it won't last forever and one of these days the other shoe will drop and we'll be that 1-15 team that everyone laughs at. I just hope that day is a long time coming.....

We paid that bill in advance... :shake: :banghead:

[Amnorix]

I remember Belichick talking about that after they drafted him. They actually went back and looked at his junior year and came to the same conclusion that you did.

Precisely. I remember BB saying in a press conference that his INTs and other performance measurements were WAY down because of a dramatic change in scheme from his junior ot his senior year.

[bideau]

Ok, but the point I was trying to make was that it wasnt NE's defense that need upgrading it was the QB and OL that were really bad before '01. They rebuilt the OL with a number for UDFA's and 4-7th round picks , but that still wasnt enough until Brady stepped behind center. Then everything changed. Guy just made plays that had to be made.

That would be like KC discovering a DT or Ray Lewis after the previous starter went down.

Luck certainly played a part in the drafting of Brady. But a little known forgotten fact is that former QB coach Dick Rehbein pushed hard for the Pats to draft him. At that point in the draft, they were looking for a QB they could develop on the practice squad. After his 1st season, he showed significant improvement and the Belichick started to think about replacing Bledsoe. Mo Lewis accelerated that decision for him.

The start OL is currently made up of Light (2nd), Andruzzi (UDFA), Koppen (5th), Neal (UDFA, never played ball in college) and Gorin (UDFA). Pioli doesn't believe in using high picks on OL.

[Annihilus]

We paid that bill in advance... :shake: :banghead:

It's funny - I try to forget about 'paying that bill' and can push most of the stuff out of my mind (Fryar cutting his hand, Controversies with women reporters in the locker room, etc.) - but that skepticisim is pretty tough to shake sometimes after so many years of striving for mediocrity.

I'm just now getting used to the guys finding a way to win games instead of lose them. But only after two Superbowls and a 21 game winning streak. I'll miss RAC (and actually Weis too) when they go.

[KCTitus]

Luck certainly played a part in the drafting of Brady. But a little known forgotten fact is that former QB coach Dick Rehbein pushed hard for the Pats to draft him. At that point in the draft, they were looking for a QB they could develop on the practice squad. After his 1st season, he showed significant improvement and the Belichick started to think about replacing Bledsoe. Mo Lewis accelerated that decision for him.

Had Belichick actually done it prior to the injury, I would look at it differently, but the way it played out...I look at it no different than Kurt Warner replacing Trent Green in STL.

OL can be had in lower rounds. Marty had a love affair with picking OT's in the first round 3 out of 4 years at one point. Shields is a 3rd rounder. I dont know about the others.

[Amnorix]

Had Belichick actually done it prior to the injury, I would look at it differently, but the way it played out...I look at it no different than Kurt Warner replacing Trent Green in STL.

OL can be had in lower rounds. Marty had a love affair with picking OT's in the first round 3 out of 4 years at one point. Shields is a 3rd rounder. I dont know about the others.

It's clear at this point what the Patriots philosophies in drafting are:

1. You can get by with "serviceable" offensive linemen, so you don't need to draft them high. Nor do you need to overpay for them in free agency (see Woody, Damien).

2. Good defensive tackles are precious and valuable (and expensive in free agency). Therefore, draft 'em high.

3. Height isn't as important as a number of other skills for a wide receiver (mainly, speed and hands). But if you want speed, draft high or forget it.

4. Love of football, heart, desire and brains are all more important than any stat generated at the NFL combine.

[HC_Chief]

#4 on Amnorix's list is key, IMO. NE has a group of <i>smart</i> players. KC has few to no smart players on D.

[Amnorix]

#4 on Amnorix's list is key, IMO. NE has a group of smart players. KC has few to no smart players on D.

Belichick repeatedly pounds on this nail in his press conferences when discussing players, both around draft time and during the season.

He's also made passing references to his displeasure with the combine and its effect on NFL rookies. I remember once this year when he was talking about a second year player who was alot better this year and he said something like "being in our workout program and improving playing strength and speed instead of wasting time working out for the combine tests..."

[HC_Chief]

KC is just the opposite. Post good combine numbers, you're in. Have a great game when a scout or coach is in the stands, you're in (doesn't matter if you've been crap the rest of your collegiate career).

[Amnorix]

#4 on Amnorix's list is key, IMO. NE has a group of smart players. KC has few to no smart players on D.

Also following on this theme -- I don't know how many other teams do it, but I know the Patriots, when interviewing prior to draft day, will show a player film of what he did at college and say "why did you do this?" "Why did you rotate your coverage at this point?" etc.

What's interesting is they are looking for several things:

1. Did the player understand fundamentally what he was doing?

2. Does the player ADMIT MISTAKES? This is critical, as they view players who are willing to admit to mistakes as being more coachable.


On that note, I should have added to my prior post item number 5 -- coachability. They value it highly.

[Amnorix]

KC is just the opposite. Post good combine numbers, you're in. Have a great game when a scout or coach is in the stands, you're in (doesn't matter if you've been crap the rest of your collegiate career).

Old time Patriots fans know it well. Dick Steinberg was the champion of the "best player available" rule, which really meant Combine results. Character, etc. were meaningless. That's what led to many years of mediocre drafting... Many, MANY years...

[BigRedChief]

Yep, #4 is totally lacking in our secondary. I think our DL with Dalton and Allen has actually been okay this year. Probably the middle of the pack we had hoped for. But the LB and Secondary...:banghead:

[Amnorix]

Another example -- during halftime of one game (I think it was the season opener against Indy), they showed highlights of a whole bunch of training camps all around the NFL. They had Mike Martz, Coughlin, Gruden (and Monte Kiffin), Mike Tice and Bill Belichick, from the ones I can remember.


The one with Belichick had him surrounded by all these behemoth offensive linemen (a funny contrast to see the Master with the young gargantuan Padawans, by the way), all wearing pads and helmets, and he said the following (exact quote from memory, as I thought this was insightful of his system and approach):

"I can't put you on the field if you don't CONSISTENTLY know what the hell you're doing. Penalties, first and 15, first and 20, we just can't operate that way".

[KCTitus]

KC is just the opposite. Post good combine numbers, you're in. Have a great game when a scout or coach is in the stands, you're in (doesn't matter if you've been crap the rest of your collegiate career).

I like to see proof of this...

[HC_Chief]

I like to see proof of this...

Check the roster.

LJ = one-year wonder.

Siavii had huge combine numbers... we took him higher than anyone expected him to go.

Heck, there's our last two #1s right there

[Brock]

Check the roster.

LJ = one-year wonder.

Siavii had huge combine numbers... we took him higher than anyone expected him to go.

Heck, there's our last two #1s right there

And obviously, at least one of these guys has major character issues.

[HC_Chief]

IIRC Sylvester Morris and Snoop Minnis both played for Gun's team(s) in the N/S game. Both did pretty well in the game... both got drafted. (both flopped miserably)

[KCTitus]

Check the roster.

LJ = one-year wonder.

Siavii had huge combine numbers... we took him higher than anyone expected him to go.

Heck, there's our last two #1s right there

Post for me combine numbers that would indicate those players did better than all the other players in that position to prove your point.

[KCTitus]

IIRC Sylvester Morris and Snoop Minnis both played for Gun's team(s) in the N/S game. Both did pretty well in the game... both got drafted. (both flopped miserably)

Snoop was drafted when DV was coach.

[HC_Chief]

LJ was more of a "had <i><b>a</i></b> good year? Well let's draft him!!" than a workout warrior.

Siavii had the #2 bench press numbers IIRC.

[KCTitus]

LJ was more of a "had <i><b>a</i></b> good year? Well let's draft him!!" than a workout warrior.

Siavii had the #2 bench press numbers IIRC.

Both statements defeat your original assertion.

Thanks.

[HC_Chief]

No they don't, thanks (smartass).

Go back and read what I stated: have good workout numbers or a good game and you're in.

Siavii had good workout numbers: showed the greatest ability to bench-press weight (wow, that's been helpful this year huh?), and LJ had ONE great college season.... so we made both our #1 pick. NEITHER has done squat.

[KCTitus]

No they don't, thanks (smartass).

Go back and read what I stated: have good workout numbers or a good game and you're in.

Siavii had good workout numbers: showed the greatest ability to bench-press weight (wow, that's been helpful this year huh?), and LJ had ONE great college season.... so we made both our #1 pick. NEITHER has done squat.

You stated this as fact, Ive yet to see facts. Speculation, yes, but no facts.

[Swanman]

Precisely. I remember BB saying in a press conference that his INTs and other performance measurements were WAY down because of a dramatic change in scheme from his junior ot his senior year.

It wasn't actually a change in scheme, the scheme was exactly the same but the defensive line completely turned over and the new one was horrible, thus got no pressure on the QB even when blitzing. During his junior year, the d-line/LBs got to the quarterback consistently so they could afford to have Eugene in press coverage but his senior year they never got to the QB so they had to have their two corners (Wilson and Christian Morton) play way off thus hurting the INT numbers. It was unbelievable that season, I don't think Illinois had an INT until the 10th or 11th game. The D-Coordinator (Mike Cassity) just refused to change his scheme to compensate for lack of playmakers in the D-line. He was fired and is now the D-Coordinator at Louisville and his D there isgiving up shitloads of points just like at Illinois.

[HC_Chief]

:spock:

Do you want a definition of 'is' to go with that?

What *$&%ing else is there on a football BB than SPECULATION? Fact is Siavii had good numbers... we drafted him higher than pretty much anyone else thought he would go. LJ had ONE, UNO, a SINGLE good season, so we drafted him to be heir apparent to Priest Holmes. That's our last two #1 picks right there... both fit the mold of the 'speculation' I presented.

[Swanman]

:spock:

Do you want a definition of 'is' to go with that?

What *$&%ing else is there on a football BB than SPECULATION? Fact is Siavii had good numbers... we drafted him higher than pretty much anyone else thought he would go. LJ had ONE, UNO, a SINGLE good season, so we drafted him to be heir apparent to Priest Holmes. That's our last two #1 picks right there... both fit the mold of the 'speculation' I presented.

With LJ, another point to add is that he racked up lots of yards against very shitty teams. He had one good game against Nebraska but was horrible in one of their important big 10 games, it was either against Michigan or Ohio State I can't remember. It's important to judge guys based on big games in their college careers in addition to season/career stats.

[Amnorix]

It wasn't actually a change in scheme, the scheme was exactly the same but the defensive line completely turned over and the new one was horrible, thus got no pressure on the QB even when blitzing. During his junior year, the d-line/LBs got to the quarterback consistently so they could afford to have Eugene in press coverage but his senior year they never got to the QB so they had to have their two corners (Wilson and Christian Morton) play way off thus hurting the INT numbers. It was unbelievable that season, I don't think Illinois had an INT until the 10th or 11th game. The D-Coordinator (Mike Cassity) just refused to change his scheme to compensate for lack of playmakers in the D-line. He was fired and is now the D-Coordinator at Louisville and his D there isgiving up shitloads of points just like at Illinois.

err...not to be an ass but if you go from telling your DBs to go from tight "press" coverage to playing off the receiver, that's a change in scheme... :shrug:

But yes, I think we're agreed as to why Wilson's numbers dropped dramatically from his junior to his senior year.

[KCTitus]

:spock:

Do you want a definition of 'is' to go with that?

What *$&%ing else is there on a football BB than SPECULATION? Fact is Siavii had good numbers... we drafted him higher than pretty much anyone else thought he would go. LJ had ONE, UNO, a SINGLE good season, so we drafted him to be heir apparent to Priest Holmes. That's our last two #1 picks right there... both fit the mold of the 'speculation' I presented.

And my speculation is they drafted for 'need' and reached rather than drafting best player available.

I refuse to believe that the staff is apathetical about improving the team. Your speculation ascribes this intent.

[Swanman]

err...not to be an ass but if you go from telling your DBs to go from tight "press" coverage to playing off the receiver, that's a change in scheme... :shrug:

But yes, I think we're agreed as to why Wilson's numbers dropped dramatically from his junior to his senior year.

That's a good point. The point I meant to make was that the overall blitzing nature of the scheme did not change but they had to change how the CBs played within the scheme because of the lack of QB pressure.

[HC_Chief]

No, your interpretation of it does. A person would have to be insane to think they are 'apathetic' in regards to improving/trying to win a SB. A SB victory = big bucks; fame and fortune and your name in big lights.... a place in history and all that.

I'm merely suggesting they SUCK at evaluating talent (at least, in the early rounds). Like I said, have a strong combine, you suddenly rocket to the top of the list. Have a strong game when one of our people is in the stands (see: our drafting players our coaches coached during collegiate N/S games), you get drafted. It appears a trend, to me.

Interesting that out LATER picks are the ones that typically stick. IMO that means our SCOUTS are doing a good job... our COACHES have been doing a shit job (at talent evaluation)

[Mythjp]

The Wilson move to free safety was born out of necessity. Milloy had just been cut and his replacement sucked badly. The coaches liked Wilson's effort and figured they'd give it a try. He's learned his hitting from Harrison and already had basic cover skills. He may someday move back to corner, but I think he's found his niche.
Wilson is playing Safety for the Patriots about the same as he played CB in College. I saw him play alot in the big 10 and he has always hit like that. Use to give WRs in the big 10 nightmares just thinking about him. However if Guss Scott comes off IRL next season fully healthy look for him to replace Wilson at Safety with Sanuel and Wilson being the starting CBs.

Pioli has said recently that he has no want to leave New England he has put down roots and will stay as long as Robert Kraft will have him.
Kraft also said that they would gladly match any offer Scott would get. Crennel is now being talked about with some NFC north teams Vikings, Packers, also the Saints and Denver have been listed. Weis name has come up with Miami, Cleveland, and St Louis.

[Amnorix]

Pioli has said recently that he has no want to leave New England he has put down roots and will stay as long as Robert Kraft will have him.
Kraft also said that they would gladly match any offer Scott would get.

Linky?

[KCTitus]

No, your interpretation of it does. A person would have to be insane to think they are 'apathetic' in regards to improving/trying to win a SB. A SB victory = big bucks; fame and fortune and your name in big lights.... a place in history and all that.

I'm merely suggesting they SUCK at evaluating talent (at least, in the early rounds). Like I said, have a strong combine, you suddenly rocket to the top of the list. Have a strong game when one of our people is in the stands (see: our drafting players our coaches coached during collegiate N/S games), you get drafted. It appears a trend, to me.

Interesting that out LATER picks are the ones that typically stick. IMO that means our SCOUTS are doing a good job... our COACHES have been doing a shit job (at talent evaluation)

Your last 2 paragraphs are contradictory...they suck at evaluating talent, but their lower round picks work out. I would suggest finding talent in later rounds is more difficult than in the 1st/2nd round. Further, the margin for error is worse in the first couple of rounds.

It's quite clear that LJ was a Carl pick in response to Holmes injury. I dont believe the nefarious intent that it was for negotiating leverage, that's nonsense. In the Tampa game, from what I could see, LJ runs tentative...and believe me after watching Marty RB's for 10 years, I know tentative when I see it. Watching Donnell Bennett ran like he was on a greased mirror.

I agree, however, that KC hasnt been able to land it's next Derrick Thomas type player for the defense especially after 2001.

[BigRedChief]

Unless he makes Pioli GM/CEO/President and matches a rumored to be 3.5 million a year salary.

[Straight, No Chaser]

Pioli has said recently that he has no want to leave New England he has put down roots and will stay as long as Robert Kraft will have him.
Kraft also said that they would gladly match any offer Scott would get. Crennel is now being talked about with some NFC north teams Vikings, Packers, also the Saints and Denver have been listed. Weis name has come up with Miami, Cleveland, and St Louis.

Yea, yea, yea. Let's see Miami/NE... NE/Miami? Not hard to figure that one out. His work in NE is done. Unless he's afraid of the occasional hurricane it's West Palm baby!


---->

[BigRedChief]

Yea, yea, yea. Let's see Miami/NE... NE/Miami? Not hard to figure that one out. His work in NE is done. Unless he's afraid of the occasional hurricane it's West Palm baby!---->
Bite your tongue. We've never had a tornado hit Arrowhead. He's putting his family in danger being down there in the path of a hurricane. Besides the Shula era what have they done lately? Wheres their fan base compoared to ours? And they suck at BBQ. :p

[Straight, No Chaser]

Bite your tongue. Weve never had a tornado hit Arrowhead. He's putting his family in danger being down there in the path of a hurricane. Besides the Shula ers what have they doen lately? Wheres their fan base compoared to ours? And they suck at BBQ. :p

Another angle: "Your kids will be surrounded by honest good 'ol midwestern values"



--->

[Mr. Laz]

snag pioli > he guts the personnel office > fires Dick Vermeil > hires Crennel from his old place of employment > Crennel retains Al Saunders for some offensive continuity > Crennel replaces all the coaches on the defensive side of the ball.



sounds like a gameplan :thumb:

[BigRedChief]

snag pioli > he guts the personnel office > fires Dick Vermeil > hires Crennel from his old place of employment > Crennel retains Al Saunders for some offensive continuity > Crennel replaces all the coaches on the defensive side of the ball. sounds like a gameplan :thumb:

Git-R-Done :thumb:

except that I still cant bring myself to bag on Gunther. Anybody with that much passion for the Chiefs gets some major slack from me.

[Amnorix]

Rumormill (i.e. pure guesswork by Internet geeks who follow the Pats) has Pioli having one of (a) Crennel, (b) Nick Saban of LSU, or (c) Kirk Ferentz (sp?) of whereverthehell it is (Iowa?), all of whom are Belichick disciples, as HC.

I don't follow college football at all, so excuse me if I butchered that coach's name up above...

[Amnorix]

I note, also, that I recently learned that Belichick tried to get Gunther to join him in NE as DC for the Pats BEFORE he had Crennel join him, so it's possible any Belichick disciple would gladly keep Gun on as his DC. If he has Belichick's respect...

[Hammock Parties]

Maybe. Having a defensive-minded head coach doesn't guarantee a good defense.

I wonder when Herm Edwards' contract is up. I'd love to have that guy replace Vermeil.

[BigRedChief]

I note, also, that I recently learned that Belichick tried to get Gunther to join him in NE as DC for the Pats BEFORE he had Crennel join him, so it's possible any Belichick disciple would gladly keep Gun on as his DC. If he has Belichick's respect...

BTW, What's the "book" on why Belicheck failed in Clevland?

[the Talking Can]

Maybe. Having a defensive-minded head coach doesn't guarantee a good defense.

I wonder when Herm Edwards' contract is up. I'd love to have that guy replace Vermeil.

no way, I like herm, but his teams are the definition of inconsistant...plus, he hired Hackett.... :shake:

[KCTitus]

And Raye...

[Hammock Parties]

no way, I like herm, but his teams are the definition of inconsistant...plus, he hired Hackett.... :shake:

At least he can draft. And he has a playoff win AND he's going to have, after this year, taken his teams to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years in a row.

Man can he draft. He's drafted a ton of great players. Pennington, Moss, LaMont Jordan, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Dewayne Robertson...the list goes on and on. His FA moves have all been spot-on as well. Curtis Martin, Justin McCareins, Donnie Abraham.

I don't think he'd bring in Hackett either. Green isn't suited to a west coast offense.

[bideau]

Maybe. Having a defensive-minded head coach doesn't guarantee a good defense.

I wonder when Herm Edwards' contract is up. I'd love to have that guy replace Vermeil.

And you'll get just as much crying :D

The other big name being tossed around was just mentioned, Nick Saban. He's a true Belichick disciple and they're very close friends. During this past offseason, BB went to LSU and spent several days discussing new coverage schemes with Saban. LSU has turned into a virtual farm team for the Pats with BB/Pioli relying heavily on Saban recommendations. One prime example is Randall Gay, rookie UDFA who's now starting and playing well.

Saban can flat out coach and some NFL team will be happy to have him.

[Hammock Parties]

And you'll get just as much crying :D

The other big name being tossed around was just mentioned, Nick Saban. He's a true Belichick disciple and they're very close friends. During this past offseason, BB went to LSU and spent several days discussing new coverage schemes with Saban. LSU has turned into a virtual farm team for the Pats with BB/Pioli relying heavily on Saban recommendations. One prime example is Randall Gay, rookie UDFA who's now starting and playing well.

Saban can flat out coach and some NFL team will be happy to have him.

I wouldn't be totally opposed but I would like to have a guy who is established and, as I pointed out as had quite a bit of success. Plus he has some experience against the two most consistently good teams in the AFC, Indy and NE.

[the Talking Can]

At least he can draft. And he has a playoff win AND he's going to have, after this year, taken his teams to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years in a row.

Man can he draft. He's drafted a ton of great players. Pennington, Moss, LaMont Jordan, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Dewayne Robertson...the list goes on and on. His FA moves have all been spot-on as well. Curtis Martin, Justin McCareins, Donnie Abraham.

I don't think he'd bring in Hackett either. Green isn't suited to a west coast offense.

no gaurantee they're going to the playoffs this year...you're right about his drafts, mostly....which is why I think his teams should have been better, but they're schizo just like us....plus, he hired Hackett

[bideau]

BTW, What's the "book" on why Belicheck failed in Clevland?

Three reasons:

1. He benched Bernie Kosar who was immensely popular with the fans and press even though he sucked. Testeverde got them to the playoffs in '94, but the fans have never forgiven him.

2. The team announced they're move to Baltimore 4 games into his last season. They were 3-1 at that point and coming off a playoff appearance. The team lost fan support and the players tanked the rest of the season.

3. The media hated him and still does. He had no media savvy back then. He'd rather get a bikini wax than talk to reporters. He's learned to deal with it since then.

[Amnorix]

At least he can draft. And he has a playoff win AND he's going to have, after this year, taken his teams to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years in a row.

Man can he draft. He's drafted a ton of great players. Pennington, Moss, LaMont Jordan, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Dewayne Robertson...the list goes on and on. His FA moves have all been spot-on as well. Curtis Martin, Justin McCareins, Donnie Abraham.

you're all over the place on this.

1. Bradway is the Jets GM, and he is PURELY responsible for their talent acquisition, not Herm Edwards.

2. Curtis Martin was a Parcells pickup, not Bradway or Herm.

3. The 2000 Jets draft was a good one, but IIRC it was teh last year that Parcells was running the show. Al Groh was coach that year, after the whole "Parcells resigns, and then BB resigns as HC of the NYJ". In that draft they got Ellis, John Abraham and Pennington in the 1st round, plus Lavernues Coles in the 3rd. But I dont' think you can give that one to Bradway, and you DEFINITELY can't give it to Herm, who wasn't even with the team as HC at that point.

4. Dewayne Robertson MAY turn out to be pretty studly, but they gave up a sick number of picks for him.

5. Pennington seems to be good, but so far he's also (a) somewhat weak-armed, and (b) brittle as hell. I'm honestly not sure what his deal is, but we'll find out within a few years if he's just too glass-jawed to survive in the NFL.

6. I like the McCareins move too.

[KCTitus]

Three reasons:

1. He benched Bernie Kosar who was immensely popular with the fans and press even though he sucked. Testeverde got them to the playoffs in '94, but the fans have never forgiven him.

2. The team announced they're move to Baltimore 4 games into his last season. They were 3-1 at that point and coming off a playoff appearance. The team lost fan support and the players tanked the rest of the season.

3. The media hated him and still does. He had no media savvy back then. He'd rather get a bikini wax than talk to reporters. He's learned to deal with it since then.

All of that has exactly ZERO to do with putting a quality product on the field or success in the NFL.

[Hammock Parties]

you're all over the place on this.

1. Bradway is the Jets GM, and he is PURELY responsible for their talent acquisition, not Herm Edwards.

2. Curtis Martin was a Parcells pickup, not Bradway or Herm.

3. The 2000 Jets draft was a good one, but IIRC it was teh last year that Parcells was running the show. Al Groh was coach that year, after the whole "Parcells resigns, and then BB resigns as HC of the NYJ". In that draft they got Ellis, John Abraham and Pennington in the 1st round, plus Lavernues Coles in the 3rd. But I dont' think you can give that one to Bradway, and you DEFINITELY can't give it to Herm, who wasn't even with the team as HC at that point.

4. Dewayne Robertson MAY turn out to be pretty studly, but they gave up a sick number of picks for him.

5. Pennington seems to be good, but so far he's also (a) somewhat weak-armed, and (b) brittle as hell. I'm honestly not sure what his deal is, but we'll find out within a few years if he's just too glass-jawed to survive in the NFL.

6. I like the McCareins move too.


Well damn. Give me Bradway AND Edwards though. I think Edwards is like the coaching love child of Vermeil and Schottenheimer.

[Calcountry]

Paying off the referees helps a bunch too. :rolleyes: :p
That tightwad Lamar, he won't use his cap money, the least the cheap bastige could do is to make the annual payment to the Officials widow fund.

[bideau]

All of that has exactly ZERO to do with putting a quality product on the field or success in the NFL.

The question was why BB failed in Cleveland. He only failed from the fans and media's perspective. By other measurements, his 1st three seasons were an overall success. He took a very bad Browns team to an 11-5 record and a playoff win (over the Parcells Pats) in his third season. That was before the cap and free agency as we know it. His last season started strong, but the distractions of the move was too much for any coach to overcome. Modell decided to can him because he wanted a "fresh start" in Baltimore.

[Amnorix]

Three reasons:

1. He benched Bernie Kosar who was immensely popular with the fans and press even though he sucked. Testeverde got them to the playoffs in '94, but the fans have never forgiven him.

Right, and it's amazing. Testaverde was clearly better, but... Note, also, the parallel with what happened in NE with Bledsoe/Brady. In NE, however, Brady immediately led us to a SB victory, so everything was forgiven.

2. The team announced they're move to Baltimore 4 games into his last season. They were 3-1 at that point and coming off a playoff appearance. The team lost fan support and the players tanked the rest of the season.

3. The media hated him and still does. He had no media savvy back then. He'd rather get a bikini wax than talk to reporters. He's learned to deal with it since then.

I'll add a few more:

4. He didn't get along with Art Modell all that well. He's much better with Kraft.

5. He wasn't as good at delegating authority then. He tried to do everything and it was too much. Most important here is having Scott Pioli now, who knows EXACTLY what and how BB wants things done in terms of targetting players, and greatly relieves that burden from him.

I want to reemphasize point 2, above. BB in his first 3 years in Cleveland was pretty mediocre. In year 4, he went 11-5 and went to the playoffs, beat the Patriots in the wild card round and lost to someone (forget who) in the divisional round.

In year 5, they got off to a good start, but Modell announces the team is leaving and everything becomes a complete circus after that, and the team tanks.

Note that in year 6, the now Baltimore Ravens, with an extra first round draft pick inherited from a trade that BB made, pick a guy named Ray Lewis and from there it's off to the races.

[Amnorix]

Well damn. Give me Bradway AND Edwards though. I think Edwards is like the coaching love child of Vermeil and Schottenheimer.

I seriously think Bradway is mediocre as hell. He got TOOLED in the offseason after 2002.

They have made a few good moves, however. Kevin Mawae is an underrated pickup, as he's an awesome C. Robertson looks like he'll be a good player, although they gave up 3 picks for him, which is a ton in this era.

[Amnorix]

Modell decided to can him because he wanted a "fresh start" in Baltimore.

Also, there was no love lost between Modell and Belichick.

[Hammock Parties]

I seriously think Bradway is mediocre as hell. He got TOOLED in the offseason after 2002.

They have made a few good moves, however. Kevin Mawae is an underrated pickup, as he's an awesome C. Robertson looks like he'll be a good player, although they gave up 3 picks for him, which is a ton in this era.

Compared to Peterson's drafting history Bradway is like Bill Walsh.

[bideau]

Also, there was no love lost between Modell and Belichick.

I never realized their relationship was strained.

You made an excellent point about how he delegated authority. By all accounts, he micro-managed the coaching staff, inserting himself into all the various positional meetings and practices. He basically just tried to do too much and didn't trust his staff to do the job.

[Amnorix]

I never realized their relationship was strained.

I don't think it was outright hatred or anything, but I know I read this somewhere.

You made an excellent point about how he delegated authority. By all accounts, he micro-managed the coaching staff, inserting himself into all the various positional meetings and practices. He basically just tried to do too much and didn't trust his staff to do the job.

Correct. Also, I remember a quote where he told the team at one meeting his first year that he had worked long and hard to get to the position of head coach and "you A-holes aren't going to fug it up for me" or somesuch ridiculous thing.

He definitely did NOT understand how to relate to players and other coaches early on in Cleveland. He was getting better in all aspects of being a HC when they went to Baltimore and it all fell apart. Then he ahd a few more years to think about what had gone wrong and improve it.

I also note that according to Bob Kraft, he seriously considered hiring BB after Parcells left in '96, but at the time he was convinced that a break from Parcells and his legacy was probably in order. After the Grier/Carroll experiment fizzled, he finally went with his instincts (ignoring mucho unsolicited advice) and hired BB.

[bideau]

For those who are still interested in Romeo Crennel as a HC, here's another article from the Boston Herald.

Romeo Waits, Wonders (http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=54640)

[Straight, No Chaser]

For those who are still interested in Romeo Crennel as a HC, here's another article from the Boston Herald.

Romeo Waits, Wonders (http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=54640)

Good info reading through this thread but hasn't it turned into a Belicheck Love-In?
Listen, his Rep should include being a master at doing more with less as well as being able to fine tune game plans to a "T", but no one has accounted for "luck" in the SB scenarios. Now, before you chowderheads bust an artery, remember "the tuck rule" which, fortunately for you and the AFC West, sent the Raiders into a spiraling death leap that continues to this day. Different ref or different angle and Raiders move on. Last year the Panthers (IMO) had your team by the nads and couldn't close the deal --that loss appears to have sent them spiraling as well. In defense "luck" just doesn't happen, it's usually a result of hard work.

After a Chiefs win Monday or the inevitable Patriots fall to earth in the playoffs/conference game Belicheck can be satisfied with his accomplishments as he takes his place among other good coaches...



---->

[Mr. Laz]

Bellichek = Marty???



in a era of parity, is bellicheck just good at making average talent play better without beating themselves?

[Amnorix]

Good info reading through this thread but hasn't it turned into a Belicheck Love-In?
Listen, his Rep should include being a master at doing more with less as well as being able to fine tune game plans to a "T", but no one has accounted for "luck" in the SB scenarios. Now, before you chowderheads bust an artery, remember "the tuck rule" which, fortunately for you and the AFC West, sent the Raiders into a spiraling death leap that continues to this day. Different ref or different angle and Raiders move on. Last year the Panthers (IMO) had your team by the nads and couldn't close the deal --that loss appears to have sent them spiraling as well. In defense "luck" just doesn't happen, it's usually a result of hard work.

After a Chiefs win Monday or the inevitable Patriots fall to earth in the playoffs/conference game Belicheck can be satisfied with his accomplishments as he takes his place among other good coaches...
---->

Wow, 2 SBs and a 21 game win streak and he's only "good"?! What does it take to be great?

Seriously, the Cats were lucky to be in the SB at all. We should have blown them out, and it was clear from the get-go that it was our game to win or lose.

Stats:

Time of Possession: 38 minutes to 21
Yards: 481 to 387

We had more first downs, more sacks (4-0), more yards rushing, more yards passing, a higher pass completion %, only 8 penalties to Carolina's 12.

We missed two Figgies which is the only reason the game was so close at the end.

We also had the lead, or were tied, for at least 55 minutes out of the 60 minute game.

There's no way in the world you can describe that game as Carolina "having us by the nads" and letting it slip away when they "should have" won. That's a joke.

[Straight, No Chaser]

Wow, 2 SBs and a 21 game win streak and he's only "good"?! What does it take to be great?


Win another one and then I'll concede.
I would call the Packers, the Steelers and San Francisco great teams. And No, I don't consider what the Donks did as great.

---->

[Amnorix]

Win another one and then I'll concede.

---->

We're working on it. :)